A question for Bill Cannon

[lun40119]

Bill I have been following your posts and responses for a while now, I have spoken to you through a couple of email too. I have frequented your website just to check out the vids of the killer 415, and just to see what your are up to next. You are quick to give feedback to people on there head choice, usually leaning towards the smaller runner versus the bigger runner. I recently ran across this article. Perhaps you could check it out and let me know what you think? The reason I am interested is that I am in the process of having a pair of heads built, and am switching from world products to a set of the pro 1s. Thanks for your time.


http://www.comp.com/Community/Articles/Details.asp?ID=-436566108

[Awesome Bill]

This seems to make everything we are told foolish. Paper does not refuse ink for one thing and we don't know what they were using completely. There are many things with a dyno that can be manipulated or misused to gather correct information. The proper with this test is that they started everything to small. This just proves with a govenor in place most anything you do will not make much difference. They proved it. So why put the big head on a small engine. It never works without more rpm to increase piston speed to put the air moving back threw the port fast enough to fill the cylinder. With the small cam, even the big head worked o.k. with the smaller header tube. put 1-¾" header tube on the thing with a 3½" collector and watch it take a nose dive. We have done test like this before and yeilded simalar #'s. It seems this article says why buy any Dart Larger head if it does not make that much difference? Well they just done a particular dyno test with just changing out the heads with nothing else than a repull. They could of used a good set of 487X castings and most likely made the same power. Just prove without the right parts to compliment the cylinder heads, you just wind up spending money. Its not just one part or the engine. It is the complete package working correctly. Hope this helps.

[lun40119]

What does the Dart Tech Staff think of this article????????? The reason I ask is becuase Bill hit it on the head, this does make everything I have been told seem backwards. Thanks

[PRO 1]

What Bill said kind of hits the nail on the head, no pun intended here! The article uses a pretty basic, 355 engine build. It kind of shows people that often to achieve ones goal you can do it with almost every head out there. In a dyno test you dont really simulate everything that is taken into consideration when building an engine. We know as engine builders and racers, that when a head flows well it does not always mean more power, and we also know that more power does not always mean a faster car. It is a slippery slope of information, which is why unless you are building the EXACT engine and car that is in said article you probably would be unhappy with the end results! People in this business who have been building motors for 20+ years and racing equally as long or longer, dont talk about flow numbers, they dont talk about dyno numbers. They talk about expectations, what you expect, how fast do you want to go, and of course what is the budget! That article, as nice as it was to see a large cluster showing that information, it was also bad. Had they built a 12.5 to 1 377 and turned it 8800 rpm you would see the test totally change. The engine would make with 6 heads of larger size, not much different, why is that? The engine combination was done, it showed that in the fact that changing the heads from a little 165 to a big 230 head that there was really not much difference on a dyno. Now put that 355 with a 230 head in your 3500lb. street car and watch stock Hondas go faster. Put teh 180 in it, and listen to it scream. We as a head company hate flow numbers, we dont even like dynos too much, we like to talk about combinations, and what a person wants to achieve. It really comes down to that engine was done, and did not matter what head went on it. We know an 18° head can make over 900hp, however on that engine it would not have made any more power.... but would have still looked good, more a product of what was done as in finished, the motor predicated the power, change cam, and heads and even cubic inches and different result.
I will say this though, the 165 head was pretty stout for a little runner, and shows that for the price it is a true street contender!

Hope this helps!
JK

[Awesome Bill]

On a stock based 355, we are so quickly forgetting that a 165cc runner is a huge head and will make great power, well over 400 & up with the correct camshaft, intake & not to big of a carb. Still, the combination working as a complete unit will produce way more usable power and e.t. than any 1 head with great flow #'s. Flow #'s are kinda like, who has got the biggest baddest fastest and everything else we can do better than one another, thing we men seem to have. As a complete package like our bodies, see what we can do it one part of our package does not want to work with the hole body. Your leg wants to go left instead of right. Your eyes don't want to see, your arm won't move. The body like a football team work together in harmony. A cylinder head buy itself is nothing more than a well crafted work of art. Put it with the wrong engine size and no matter how you beat it, it will not work correctly as with the correct engine and rpm for that size head. Now take a killer engine that dyno tested 900 hp and put it with an incorrect package. Bam, the first thing everyone says is "their dyno must be off"

[beastoakland]

dang i would rather read information here than the books i buy every month.

[Awesome Bill]

I re read that article again, and boy who ever used the 750 cfm carb must of had a failing grade in basic math. This engine would of done a ton better with a smaller carb to go along with the camshaft used. Actually a 355 engine @ 5000 rpm will use a realistic 513 cfm of air and that is @ 100% VE. We never get 100% VE with closed exhuast, mufflers, air filters etc. So this camshaft is well known to quit around 4500 -5000 at best with the whimpy valve train that they used, (stock push rods, steel retainers, heavy valves etc.) Then throw a huge in comparison carbs on a stock engine with basically a stock engine with huge heads and some decent camshaft with to much duration and a great big carb!. Where do they find these people who think this stuff up.

Here is how it all adds up, people have parts just sitting on the shelf, they need to pay bills and supply the workers with jobs so our economy will continue to grow. You call and say I have a set of double hump heads on my 350 running 12.50;s @ 105mph in my stock Camaro. You ask, Will your cam make my car run faster? Oh yeah he or she replies, o.k. send me one. This can go for anything. And as their own dyno test prove, your car will run slower than before with thinking the package threw. Believe me, as much as I want to take the place of my doctor, I would most likely mess something up pretty bad if I tried to operate on my wife to save a few bucks!

This is exactly why we have professionals. If you want to learn from trial and error, you could be called a very smart man from his own lessons. But you will have paid 10 times to much!

Some engine builders are very honest and will try to point you in the right direction. But there are some who can't tie their shoe laces in the morning. BIG THIS BIG THAT is all you here.

I get about 50 emails a day from I don't know who just sits around and send this stuff on how much bigger I can get in 30 days! lol. We all know its not true, just ask your wife, she'll propbably tell you if you learned to use what you got correctly, you be a ton better off. But no, you don't want to take the time to do that, you just want to follow the world in the Big is better so Bigger must be a lot better. We used old double hump head for years and made a ton of power when properly prepaired. Now the new 165 heads from Dart are a God sent relief from working with old 041 and 186 castings. Now we can install a little larger, better designed head on these 355's for you street guys and really make 400 hp with a cam, head, and intake change. What do we do, we stick a huge carb on the engine, give it a 1.5/8 header tube into a complete exhaust out the back and want it to run. LIke I said before, new heads are great and actually save a ton of money and are well worth the bucks spent just to bolt on. This article should be redone with someone who knows how to dyno test a proper combination and not just throw big heads on it. Tell them to bolt and exhaust system on and take that forced induction unit and turn the blower off, and take the exhaust evac fan off also. Run the room air temp air and see what they get!

We do not force any air into the engine when dyno testing, nor do we have an exhaust fan helping to lift the exhuast out. We have been messing around with the 383 and now brand new 402 SBC crate engine. The head of choice for real street driving is the 180 and 200 cc unit with a 2.02 intake and 1.5 exhaust valve.

We have just finished off a street strip 402 crate SBC engine with 11/1 compression and will be dyno testing this thing as soon as I get a chance next week. We are hoping for a real 575 ft lbs of torque and 550 hp under 6000 rpm. If it don't, we will do it till we get it. Our goal is to stomp the BBC real street engine into the ground with a truely real street engine with 91-93 octane pump gas. Yes its roller and will support 150 hp of NOS.

[SUX 2BU]

What an interesting thread, an article. That motor is almost identical to what mine will be when I'm done. Same 165cc heads, same Xtreme Energy 268 cam, older Dart dual-plane intake, roller-tip rockers, small-tube, long headers. About the only difference is I use a smaller 600cfm carb and my motor is 60-over, not 30. I know I shouldn't rely on the dyno numbers, as dynos are not created or calibrated equally but I do hope for at least 350 HP if not 375 HP. Basically, I'm hoping it can throw my 4000 lb truck down the 1/4 in the low 14s.

Anyway, lots of great info here. As much as it seems to go against my natural instincts, I may at some point replace my 600 cfm Edelbrock with a 500 cfm unit as Bill suggests. I've seen a few dyno shootouts with somewhat similar setups to what I will have and they ALL use 750cfm carbs. Must be the favorite for magazine guys and small blocks.

[lun40119]

Bills got a dominator on a 350ish engine at his website.......it is by the 383 street heat engine.....but this particular engine looks like he pulls from 5000-7500 rpm. I would like to hear what the rest of the parts are on that engine. I think in the video he says "5 and change torque" and 440ish hp.......been awhile since I saw the video.

[Awesome Bill]

that was the 750cfm dominator. We pulled the engine with a 750 using 7400 rpm and made 557 I think and when we used the dominator, it only done 547. But I used it out of the box just for a customer wanting to use it on a 406. I sold the dominator as soon as they seen it work on a 355. The torque was decent, I thing around 475 @ 5600. I sold that engine the next day also to a Divsion 1 racer who it putting it in a Chevelle to run Super. That was a really nice engin with all lightweight parts that I had laying around. I used the 50cc 200 cc RHS heads with a flat top and 6.125" rod. I just want to get rid of the parts laying around. All new but those engines don't sell very well and just gave Wayne a killer deal. Complete under $5000.00 with ignition. Way to cheap.