Sway Bar for rear end

[want-a-be]

Jake,

I was thinking about some of the problems you are having in the first 60' of your runs. I thought you had mentioned that fish tailing was one of them. Do you have a swaybar, some call it a torsion bar, mounted on you rear end? If so,..how is it mounted?

These things really are great for most short commings of equalizing the distribution of preload. If the car leans one way then the sway bar will add preload to the propper side, mainly the opposite side, to get it going straight again. It's pretty awsome how they work.

Don

[lun40119]

yeppers, its solid mounted to the lower bars.....

[ejohnson03]

Wow, looks like a mighty fine Impala. 1967?

I am building up my 1976 Impala Custom.

Just finished squeezing in the 434 Stroker and 700R4 trans.

The rear coil springs and shocks need upgrading also.

Are you running any special rear suspension?

I have heard that METCO makes upper and lower Control arms that would keep me from bouncing of the pavement.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

[lun40119]

Its a 67 chevelle with adjustable uppers solid lowers and CA connectors.....pretty much just upgraded stock stuff.

[ejohnson03]

Doh... sorry about that...

It is a very nice looking car.

[want-a-be]

But he does have an Impala,... or his wife does any way.

Don

[lun40119]

Yep wifey drives the Impy boat 3-4 times a week. Really rolling on the miles this year. Doing a cam, head intake swap this winter.............anyone know where I can get a good set of heads??????

[Awesome Bill]

lack of air pressure causes the sashaying or swaying or fish tailing. Also if the posi is given up this will cause one tire to bite let go bite let go etc. From the look of the hit of the tire, it needs more air pressure, you should never wrinkle the tire that bad! jmo

[lun40119]

That was with 12lbs. I remember in high school, I ran a 10.90's bbc in a 67 chevelle, and we ran the Goodyears at 8lbs. Looking at the pics and watching the video, you are right. More air will help alot. I also talked to a MT rep, he said that with 3600lbs, I should use a stiff side tire. These tires are just plain 28x10.50's I think I will get to the bottom of it. I am having a cage put in this winter, to keep the techs off my back. So next spring I should be able to run everyweekend. That is if my junk holds up.

I also have a new cam being ground. With super top secret lobes :rolleyes: But I will tell you this, it is shorter at .020 and .050.

[Trmnatr]

That was with 12lbs. I remember in high school, I ran a 10.90's bbc in a 67 chevelle, and we ran the Goodyears at 8lbs. Looking at the pics and watching the video, you are right. More air will help alot. I also talked to a MT rep, he said that with 3600lbs, I should use a stiff side tire. These tires are just plain 28x10.50's I think I will get to the bottom of it. I am having a cage put in this winter, to keep the techs off my back. So next spring I should be able to run everyweekend. That is if my junk holds up.

I also have a new cam being ground. With super top secret lobes :rolleyes: But I will tell you this, it is shorter at .020 and .050.

What about @.200" :D

Serious most Crane/Comp lobes and many others would be 10° shorter yet have the same @.200" number

[Awesome Bill]

most engines are over cammed anyway!

[lun40119]

The cam I am having done is shorter with more lift. And a lil wider.

[Awesome Bill]

sounds better already.

[lun40119]

Here is another pic that I found online. This is at the hit........bout two feet later it runs over itself, and unloads and spins. Ill get it...........but just wanted to give you an idea of what I am working with. This is with 36° timing on pump gas.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w26/bells67/BOP-days-09-166.jpg

[Awesome Bill]

Here is another pic that I found online. This is at the hit........bout two feet later it runs over itself, and unloads and spins. Ill get it...........but just wanted to give you an idea of what I am working with. This is with 36° timing on pump gas.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w26/bells67/BOP-days-09-166.jpg

Classic killing the side wall application. Just took a quick read threw all the post and Jake if your running this car without a roll bar, your doing very well. I never knew this was a real stock chassis. Taking a quick look and you can see the right rear side wall tire is being killed. This can easily be fixed with air pressure or preload of the upper right rear bar if they are adjustable. If you take a look at the right rear tire, its almost round. Your first 0-20 feet are with the left rear tire. Get that roll bar and stiffen up the chassis and most times the car will kept the rear tires planted longer and more evenly.

[lun40119]

Bill I think part of the problem with that pic is I was running a clutch style trac loc posi in my Dana. I have got a Strange 35 spline spool in there now. The trac loc was broken. Not sure if that was the problem, but the next burnout started with two wheels, and finished as one :eek:

I did finally get the balls to put a cage in the car, that is welded to the frame. I only drove it on the street with the cage, never made it to the track, but it stiffened up the frame 10 fold. You are thinking I should put an anti-roll bar in the car?

[Awesome Bill]

It looks like from the picture, the left rear tire was doing everything proven your point with the broken differential. With the roll bar, if you put an anti roll bar on you will have deadly consistent pressure on both axles no matter what power you through @ it.

But, you already have one with the sway bar, they do almost the exact same thing. I use the biggest one front and rear for perfect launches. A lot of people pull the sway bar off the front thinking it will help, it don't, it hurts. When I had my 68 BBC 468 Chevelle, I could drag the bumper and it was fun. I took the front and rear sway bar off and the car would not leave. It lifted the front left wheel as the right rear killed the spring and the car rolled over. Put everything back on and right back to dragging the bumper. Posi traction units @ best might be able to work with a good amount of power. Either way you will see a big difference in the 60 foot with both tires getting it done.

I have always wanted to put a 66 or 67 together just not got around to it. Almost bought one to play with and it did not work out. I got to many toys to play with as it is.

[DartCamaro]

Best thing you can possibly do to help your or any car launch is to pull the front and rear sway bars off. Tune you front by adjusting shock (or if you have coil overs) and using suspension limiters in the front is a must if its lifting the tires off the ground. Pull the rear sway bar off and install an anti-roll bar. Tune the rear suspension with zero preload on the anti-roll bar, and then start slowly adding pressure after you get it hooking to keep the car from body rolling. Lastly... like i said about tuning the front suspension, if the front is completely out of wack, you rear sus. probably wont work worth a crap. I can cut 1.16 60ft on a small tire on a car i can drive on the street occasionally ( 565 BBC with 2 kits)

[want-a-be]

IMO a sway bar and a torsion bar are pretty much the same. One is more adjustable then the other of course. But even that can be gotten around. They both work almost exactly like the other.

I've even used them in the circle track scene on the front end of a street stock car. That guy flat out refuses to race without it now.

Don

[DartCamaro]

[QUOTE=want-a-be;11275]IMO a sway bar and a torsion bar are pretty much the same. One is more adjustable then the other of course. But even that can be gotten around. They both work almost exactly like the other.

I've even used them in the circle track scene on the front end of a street stock car. That guy flat out refuses to race without it now.

Don[/QUOT

But a sway bar or a torsion bar are still not an Anti-roll bar. An anti-roll bar's sole purpose is to preload and prevent body roll without limiting the cars suspension travel. If you take off the front sway bar and use a set of front end limiters the car will probably 60ft and 330ft faster because the front end will not be pointed north, yet the car will still leave straight.

[Awesome Bill]

Best thing you can possibly do to help your or any car launch is to pull the front and rear sway bars off. Tune you front by adjusting shock (or if you have coil overs) and using suspension limiters in the front is a must if its lifting the tires off the ground. Pull the rear sway bar off and install an anti-roll bar. Tune the rear suspension with zero preload on the anti-roll bar, and then start slowly adding pressure after you get it hooking to keep the car from body rolling. Lastly... like i said about tuning the front suspension, if the front is completely out of wack, you rear sus. probably wont work worth a crap. I can cut 1.16 60ft on a small tire on a car i can drive on the street occasionally ( 565 BBC with 2 kits)

that is the worst thing you can do for a stock 4 link application. When you take the front sway bar off, this just then allows the engine torque to go wild. It offers no performance gains and only lessons the proper transfer of engine torque to pinion gear torque to equal themselves out. I raced a pro street 68 Chevelle for years and the one thing I put back on was the biggest sway bar I could find along with the aftermarket rear sway bar kit. WHAT DO YOU THINK A SWAY BAR IS? Its an anti sway or roll bar, this keeps the chassis flat, just has a new name and you can sell it and ofcourse adjust it. The car would drag the bumper with it on and be all over the track without it. You can not adjust shocks enough to even this out. Front end limiters would work better than a shock adjustment, even if you could get it to work. You would have to put an anti-roll bar on it to take get it to go straight and even.

I am talking power here, not 12-11 second street cars, but even with them it will help. NEVER TAKE A SWAY BAR OFF THE FRONT OF A REAL STREET CAR! Go into a corner and watch the front end take a dive, what do you think happens when you start from a dead stop with no sway bar and a ton of engine torque from one of those Dart 565 street engines? Think about it.

[DartCamaro]

that is the worst thing you can do for a stock 4 link application. When you take the front sway bar off, this just then allows the engine torque to go wild. It offers no performance gains and only lessons the proper transfer of engine torque to pinion gear torque to equal themselves out. I raced a pro street 68 Chevelle for years and the one thing I put back on was the biggest sway bar I could find along with the aftermarket rear sway bar kit. WHAT DO YOU THINK A SWAY BAR IS? Its an anti sway or roll bar, this keeps the chassis flat, just has a new name and you can sell it and ofcourse adjust it. The car would drag the bumper with it on and be all over the track without it. You can not adjust shocks enough to even this out. Front end limiters would work better than a shock adjustment, even if you could get it to work. You would have to put an anti-roll bar on it to take get it to go straight and even.

I am talking power here, not 12-11 second street cars, but even with them it will help. NEVER TAKE A SWAY BAR OFF THE FRONT OF A REAL STREET CAR! Go into a corner and watch the front end take a dive, what do you think happens when you start from a dead stop with no sway bar and a ton of engine torque from one of those Dart 565 street engines? Think about it.

Well maybe if you cant figure out how to get it to work thats your problem. I said to take off the rear and put on an anti roll bar. Front sway bars are useless. Depends what shocks you have. I put a set of coil overs on the front of my 2nd gen camaro with limiters....works fine. I drive my car on the street and it does just fine in corners. Who cares if it dives or comes up? Your not trying to cut corners and make fast turns in a drag/street car anyways. You should be taking them at 5mph. And what happens when i take off from a light with my NON Dart 565 that I built long before i worked here? Absolutly nothing. Car stays nice and straight, dont even need to hold the steering wheel. My motor put down 1048hp at 8200rpm and I drive it on the street VERY rarely anyways. And Thought about it, and Im sorry you cant figure this stuff out.

[want-a-be]

DC,...I agree that the "anti roll bar" works a bit better. Mainly cause it's designed to work a bit more aggressively the the stock sway bar, with more adjustability. But to tell you the truth the torsion bar, anti roll bar and sway bar are all pretty much the same thing. They all do the job exactly the same way, because of the exact same reasons.

If the chassis leans, or said differently "applies forces to", one side of the chassis. The sway bar will sense this change of force and reapply most of that force to the opposite wheel. So if you use a little creative thinking, it's almost a sort of "automatic" traction control. I'd love to hear your explanation, or opinion, of how those forces are being reapplied.

Remember, Bill is referring to a street car, not a race only car. I myself wouldn't have a street car without a sway bar on the front or back either, no matter what label you want to stamp on it. (Sway bar, or anti roll bar, same thing) Mainly cause I know some of the stunts I like to pull every once in a while.

I've used the front sway bar, with very good results, in the dirt track scene also. Mainly to reapply some of those "redistributed forces" that tend to move around when you slide into a corner back to the inside rear tire. Hmmm,...wonder how I'm using a front sway bar to add more load, or traction (same thing), to the left rear tire? When you figure it out let me know. You can actually read about it somewhere if you look hard enough. Myself I took a little knowledge, applied a little creative thinking and applied it to where most dirt track guys do not. I even preload that front sway bar to make changes in how it works.

btw,...I've never had to tune a race car with front end limiters. I do it with the correct parts. It's always a package deal,...bumper to bumper.

Something about your last post I'd like to know about. What is a NON Dart 565?

Some of us around here have built and tuned, at the track, more then only one form of race car. When I'm talking about tuning a car I mean the engine and the chassis.

Don

After rereading my post here I realize it sounds a bit argumentative. But that is not this posts intent. It’s just meant to voice a difference of opinion, and to explain my opinion of what a sway bar does.

[lun40119]

I have tried my street car with and without the front bar. I have a huge Hotchkis front bar. It slows the transfer, but I did not gain/loose 60'. But you guys know what I was fighting last year. Ill check it this year when I get my engine back. :) I always leave the rear bar on. It is bolted to the lowers.

[DartCamaro]

You can feel free to play with front sway bars all you want. This was a thread about drag racing. I dont know anything about dirt track because im not interested in it. Not saying its not cool to watch, its just not my personal preference to participate in. Using a good set of coil overs in the front with susp. limiters is somehow doing it incorrect? Interesting why most ppl i know as well as myself use them on 10.5 tires and we run high 6's low 7's in the 1/4 at around 200mph. Cars leave nice and straight with no wheelie bars. These are NOT chassis cars either. When i said "NON Dart 565" I was refering to the fact that he thought i have some 565ci "street" motor that i had dart build because i work here. I built that motor at my house as well as MANY other motors for my car long before ever stepping foot in Dart.

[lun40119]

I didn't have decent shocks either last year, and my power level is alot less than what you are playing with. I did buy Double adjustable shocks this year so I hope that it works out well. :) Good having you around new guy...........spices thing up a bit.

[want-a-be]

When you build for as wide a range of racing that I have, you need to be able to tune the different types of chassis that your engines go in. All of what you know, or think you know, about chassis tuning applies to every kind of racing. I try to think about how the chassis is working sequentially and try to head off potential problems before the become problems. Off road truck racing, back when it was the old SODA series, use to be the most fun, challenging, for me to work on. Was like combining late model racing and motocross in the same race.

racing is racing. You have to have forward bit to go anywhere. if you have to make an occasional left turn, like in the dirt, then you have to figure out how to apply that forward bite while the car is wanting to ride on the out side 2 wheels. One way to do so is with the sway, anti roll, bar. Because not only will that sway bar affect the wheel next to it, it will also affect the cross corner weight transfer. Want proof? Next time to have your car on the scales play around with the lower spring cup on the coil over shocks. Adjust the lower one up on one corner and watch what happens to the cross corner weight. Try this with a front shock and a rear shock. I bet you find out that the front coil spring takes a lot less adjustment then the rear does to make the same weight changes. Well....if it's a true race chassis that is. Say the rear shocks are 110 pounds and the front ones are 350 pound springs. The front springs take less adjustment to change the weight then the 110 pound springs do.

Would like to talk some time on the phone about it all if you have the time and are interested. PM me and I'd be glad to send you my contact information.

Don

[want-a-be]

I didn't have decent shocks either last year, and my power level is alot less than what you are playing with. I did buy Double adjustable shocks this year so I hope that it works out well. :) Good having you around new guy...........spices thing up a bit.

I agree.

Jake, you'll appreciate those shocks, good investment.

Don

[DartCamaro]

Your not telling me anything I dont really know yet. Im sure you know a lot more about chassis and suspensions then me for different types of applications. I primarily know about drag racing and thats it. I know what works and what doesnt. To much time invested. money invested, and headaches. Feel free to PM your number and i can PM you mine as well.

[Awesome Bill]

[QUOTE=want-a-be;11275]IMO a sway bar and a torsion bar are pretty much the same. One is more adjustable then the other of course. But even that can be gotten around. They both work almost exactly like the other.

I've even used them in the circle track scene on the front end of a street stock car. That guy flat out refuses to race without it now.

Don[/QUOT

But a sway bar or a torsion bar are still not an Anti-roll bar. An anti-roll bar's sole purpose is to preload and prevent body roll without limiting the cars suspension travel. If you take off the front sway bar and use a set of front end limiters the car will probably 60ft and 330ft faster because the front end will not be pointed north, yet the car will still leave straight.

Sway bar torsion bar, both are the same. They were intended on keeping the front end from diving going in and out of corners. What they did and they found out 50 years ago was helped control engine torque. So in the later 60's, someone come up with the torsion bar or sway bar for the rear to help control pinion gear torque. 1970 Chevelles and a ton of later higher HP BB cars had them on all of them. This evened out the engine torque steer and pinion torque steer. Ideally both should cancel out each other and both tires stay on the ground evenly when power is applied.

Front end limiters do not stop engine torque when you don't have a roll bar locking the frame together. The more bars the stiffer. Only in these conditions to limiters help stop engine torque. They do not allow the roll over affect from 6" of front end travel and help more to control the skyward motion as to the engine torque steering. Anti-roll bars are never meant to preload nothing, they were meant to keep the rear tires straight and even. You always preload with the 4 link and ladder bars. The anti fill bar can be used for that but the 1" bar or so is no match for high torque engines like blowers and nitrous. Can be used and should be used is different. What most people do is get it to work and never understand why the anti-roll bar does work. What I will say about an anti-roll bar, the rear of the car will be horizontal and not jacked up on one side. I use no anti-roll bars in either of my cars. They go dead straight with little problems. I know how to set up a chassis without any scales or scaling of a chassis. That is pretty much a useless time consuming event that yields little to nothing at the track with high torque engines.

[Awesome Bill]

Well maybe if you cant figure out how to get it to work thats your problem. I said to take off the rear and put on an anti roll bar. Front sway bars are useless. Depends what shocks you have. I put a set of coil overs on the front of my 2nd gen camaro with limiters....works fine. I drive my car on the street and it does just fine in corners. Who cares if it dives or comes up? Your not trying to cut corners and make fast turns in a drag/street car anyways. You should be taking them at 5mph. And what happens when i take off from a light with my NON Dart 565 that I built long before i worked here? Absolutly nothing. Car stays nice and straight, dont even need to hold the steering wheel. My motor put down 1048hp at 8200rpm and I drive it on the street VERY rarely anyways. And Thought about it, and Im sorry you cant figure this stuff out.

I actually have built and still build street rods and race cars as well as back half a ton of them. To say any sway bar or torsion bar does not help is silly and you do not understand what a stock chassis does and one that is stiffened up with a nice 10 or 14 point roll bar will do.

Shocks do little to nothing with a front chassis with limiters. This totally disproves your statement. With a 1" chassis extension, even with a 3" travel pro stock front end strut, the shocks do nothing after 1" of travel, they are just there to make a smooth landing when the wheels come down and control the ride when the shoots come on. So to say throwing away the sway bar on a stock chassis is silly.

There is nothing to help control engine torque at this point with a stock frame and no roll bar. A dead hook will cause the front left tire to come up as much as 1 foot and we have all seen this even with a roll bar installed. It is caused by the right rear spring being compressed allowing the front left from the torque of the engine to just have its way. Yes in this case a limiter will help but not control engine torque to say without a roll bar stiffening up the chassis.

As far as your car going dead straight and making 1068 hp, that means nothing on the street without a dead hook. I doubt seriously your making that power and doubt seriously your stock chassis could handle it even with a 6 - 8 -10 point roll bar. Managing over 1000 hp is very easy to say, much harder to get it to go dead straight in a dead hook situation, one that I doubt you have done on a track with a video showing us the nice smooth pass! If you have one, please share that with us to show us you did it.

My 68 Camaro actually runs 8.39 @164mph with the plate and 8.17 using just a single stage Fogger and also has been 7.86 with both stages of 550hp and I drive it where I want to. It weighs 3300lbs with me in it and I run a 3.73 gear and a 33" tall tire and have actually pulled 1.26 60 ft times with a perfect straight launch which can be seen by boomboomclickclick postings on yellow bullet of a real car. You may not know that I actually won the First 8.50 event @ the 2008 Shakedown with 6 perfect runs and that is with only 1040hp. This is a real street car with no anti roll bars, does have a good cage and chains for front end limiters set a 1" off travel to keep the front tires a nice 1 foot off the ground all the way to the 100ft mark. So how fast and heavy is your car? To say I can't figure it out is actually an insult on what I actually do @ the track. I fix cars @ the track all the time with the anti roll bars that have been improperly installed. The first thing I do is unhook them and set the chassis up without it and tell them to go run it. Very seldom does it come back for an adjustment.

If you want to see my car actually running a 8.53 on the brakes, take a look on my web site in the media section. I run that car exclusively in the 8.50 legal street class. I invite you to come down and sign up the first Saturday of every month. This way you can get a feel for what 1068 hp should be doing and how it should look first hand in a 3300 or so lb street car. TAGGED.

With any race car street car set up, there are many ways to skin a cat. I have seen some stuff with NO SHOCKS on the front end work beautiful. They are only there to pick the wheels up and keep the springs in the car when the car is on the bumper. So shocks play little to know play in these cases. In a prostock, the rear shocks are critical but the front do little because of the limiters. Once you learn engine torque and pinion torque are 2 totally different things to deal with, you will begin to learn how to properly set up a chassis. Here is the thing, do it without a anti roll bar and you know what your doing for sure. An anti-roll bar is a band-aid and is used by most to correct a problem they can not figure out with it. Everyone ask me how my car works as well as it does and not have the anti-roll bar. Think about the name of the device "ANTI-ROLL BAR" what does "roll" have to do with the bar? It should be anit-pinion torque steer bar or anti toque bar or rear level bar, the mere mention of any type of roll only come from the sway bar, this kept body roll intact better when cornering. The anti roll bar is just adjustable and has been upgraded to fix a problem. I understand well what goes on with a chassis so you don't have to apologize for me not understanding. I have forgotten more that most know on chassis. For that I don't apologize, I just offer understanding. Hope this helps for most to read the Alston book on chassis, the cause and effects.