Dart Declares War

[Dart Vader]

<o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com<img src=" images="" smilies="" redface.gif="" border="0" alt="" title="Embarrassment" smilieid="2" class="inlineimg"></o:smarttagtype>There has been much talk in the performance community lately concerning the arrival of “bargain” performance blocks and heads from various sources. These parts generally claim to be high quality performance pieces at extremely low prices. Sometimes the sellers don’t mention much about the materials used, the quality control, or where they’re made. Sometimes they are misleading about it, and sometimes they outright lie about these facts. <o>

</o> At Dart, our focus is creating great engine parts, right here in the U.S.A. We usually just shake our heads and move on when we see this sort of thing happening. But once in a while we get fed up with the bottom feeders and we decide to do something about it.
<o></o>
This is one of those times.
<o></o>
Starting October 1st 2009 and ending December 31^st, 2009 we will be making an unprecedented offer to all of our customers and associates.
<o></o>
Our Little M Sportsman series blocks, part numbers 31151111, 31151211, 31152111 and 31152211, will be available at a special $200.00 universal discount.<o></o>
<o></o>
Our regular Little M blocks, part numbers 31131111, 31131211, 31132111 and 31132211, will be available at a special $300.00 universal discount.<o></o>
<o></o>
ALL customers, from our biggest warehouse distributors, to our numerous friends in the racing community, to the guy building his street rod in the garage, will receive this special pricing across the board.
<o></o>
Our blocks are high quality, U.S.<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1></st1></st1:country-region> performance pieces and we know they’re a better value than these “bargain” offerings out there. We don’t need to be misleading about their quality or where they’re made.
<o></o>
From October to December, we are declaring war.
Our intent is to send the “bargain” blocks packing by offering you a far superior piece at a comparable price.
Why consider a questionable engine block when you can get the best? It’s a win-win.
Get an awesome block, at an awesome price – designed, cast, machined and packaged 100% here in the good ol’ <st1>U.S.A.</st1>
<o></o>
If you’re thinking about buying a new block… there shouldn’t be any question where it’s going to come from.
<o>

</o> - Thanks to all our loyal customers, fans, friends and associates, from Dart.

[lun40119]

Good for Dart, I am really glad to hear it. I think Carl Hinkson has done a great job of exposing the Brand X block for what it really is. A look-alike turd!!!!!

[CNC BLOCKS]

I have already been posting on the sites last week I belong to about your price reduction.

I had one of the Chinese blocks in the shop and it is truely a POS.

[CNC BLOCKS]

Here is a quote from another site where I posted my findings of the Chinese block.

Finally did the final probling of the Brand X block

Block datum points in the CNC machine are the cam and crank center line, center line of the bar through the mains and the center of the head dowel on the front of the drivers side block.

Also the block uses the same dowel holes under the fuel pump and starter area which I would say means the blocks are being machined on a track system which is used in high production machining.

One of the biggest problems with the block is from the center of the dowel pin which is the datum point, From there out to the front of the block the demension is suppose to be .845 and on this block its .865 which will move the cam a head in the block .020 and on a flat tappet cam the lobe will not last long riding on the edge of the lobe.

Now if you are using a BHJ lifter bore fixture which referances of the front of the block and going to an lifter .875 lifter bore it will leave a shadow on the rear of each lifter bore which means every lifter bore will need to be bushed even to run a .875 lifter.

The cylinders on the both sides were with in .003 front to rear.

On the even side left to right or intake to exhaust or I call this Y-axis the best was .001 worst was .0038

On the odd side in Y-axis best was .0018 the worst was .0077

Deck heights were on the even side were
low was 9.028
High was 9.038

Deck heights on the odd side were
Low was 9.029
High was 9.032

On the lifter bores we check the angles on all four corners only which should be 41 degrees.

Front lifter bore cylinder one was 40.937
Rear on cylinder seven was 41.026

Front lifter bore cylinder two was 41.020
Rear on cylinder eight was 41.014

I also used a .8425 cutter and machined down appox. .200 down on all four corners

And on cylinder one first lifter bore the cutter cut appox.006 at about 8 O'clock looking from the left side of the block which means the lifter bore was to far back and to far to the inside of the block

On cylinder 7 the rear lifter bore cut only at 12 O'clock looking from the left side of the block meaning the lifter bore was to far to the out side of the block appox. .006

On cylinder number 2 front lifter bore and cylinder number 8 rear lifter bore the cutter was only cutting at 12 O'Clock looking from the left side of the block which means the lifter bore was towards the inside of the block to much appox. .004

Running a roller cam your are dealing with direct center lines and having lifter bores of that far will change your seat to seat timing events.

The other problem I mentioned earlier was the hole through the lifter bore front to rear to and on the front lifter bore even side was the with in .003 of the Dart block but the rear of the hole dropped .0024

Looking at the 2 blocks side by side the hole in the Brand X block looks like the oil hole is 3/16 closer to the bottom of the lifter bore compared to the Dart blocks, The problem being is there is not enough material under the bottom side of the lifter bore or cam tunnel area as I measured from the cam bearing journal to the casting and its .200 different then the Dart block. Which means there maybe a chance of the lifters oil band being exposed when the lifter is on the base cirlce of the cam and more so a bigger problem with a small base circle camshaft.

From here the block is going to an other shop to have a brennel test done.

At this piont I am not going to waste my time check the cam tunnel for its locations as I have spent to much time all ready.

From my findings this block needs a lot of work before it could be used and if its a soft as I think it is there is no cure for that.

[jsup]

Bravo DV, Bravo. It is about time. I'm glad to see you are taking these competitors seriously. You have a lot of work ahead of you and you need to be the force in the market that your product deserves.

We've talked about this in the past and it's good to see you stepping up.

[Trmnatr]

Here is what i said on another site

Think its great to see a "GOOD" company stick up to $hit ones

Now if Brand "X" is being Promoted by big Dart warehouse brand "P" does this effect their Dart line up in any way?



Great for Richard & Dart Staff



Maybe some other US companies will stand up too



Callies has, Dart... We need more USA companies to run the cheap junk off



I even consider Eagle and Scat USA because at least they hire americans to finish the products and their stuff is not "BROKE" out of the box or "SOFT"

[zlek131]

Wish they would extand this deal to the Big-M series. I've been eyeballin a big-M block for my new build.

[BottomFeeder]

although we have never claimed that our blocks and heads are equal quality as yours
what we do say is we offer quality performance parts at affordable prices i think we should
put it on the line and have an independant 3rd party do a build comparison. our block and heads vs your block and heads i am sure super chevy would love to run this artical now keep in mind i am not in any way claiming that our products are better than dart but that we offer an affordable alternitive. so here is your chance to settle this once and for all.........no more
he said she said lets let our parts do the fighting for us.

thanks

BottomFeeder

[lun40119]

Welcome to the board Bottom Feeder.........care to clear up some of the questions that were asked on other boards, that never got answered.

[McDart]

although we have never claimed that our blocks and heads are equal quality as yours
what we do say is we offer quality performance parts at affordable prices i think we should
put it on the line and have an independant 3rd party do a build comparison. our block and heads vs your block and heads i am sure super chevy would love to run this artical now keep in mind i am not in any way claiming that our products are better than dart but that we offer an affordable alternitive. so here is your chance to settle this once and for all.........no more
he said she said lets let our parts do the fighting for us.

thanks

BottomFeeder


The block you are referring to, which is generally recognized as an obvious copy of the Dart Little M, has already been evaluated by a 3rd party who posted his findings in several forums.
There is little doubt that it can be used to build an engine, and there is little doubt which is the superior product - so, there is little reason for us to participate in such an exercise.

[BottomFeeder]

Welcome to the board Bottom Feeder.........care to clear up some of the questions that were asked on other boards, that never got answered.


sure fire away!

[BottomFeeder]

i openly welcome any questions

[lun40119]

I have heard of these blocks being cast in numerous different places..............Where are they being cast?

[CNC BLOCKS]

i openly welcome any questions

Does BottomFeeder have a name??

[CNC BLOCKS]

Dick Boyer is over on speedtalk.com and I am sure he won't aswser some of the questions

But can you answer these ones on this link
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18389

[ejohnson03]

Now go to your nuetral corners, and come out fighting....
Ding, Ding....

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/naturehouse/Toys2Remember/RSR2.jpg

[lun40119]

sure fire away!


Still waiting Mr. Bottom Feeder. All I asked was a simple question...........Dart will tell you exactly where all their stuff is cast, sometimes before you ask.

[CNC BLOCKS]

Check out this quote

was told the blocks come from the same foundry as the pro comps and are machined by wheeller in michigan on same type of machine dart uses,was also told the blocks do brinell test in the 190's,caps are made in the usa and they use arp bolts.

But Dick Boyer did admit they are cast in China check out this thread. Things are not adding up here and not much response to the questions asked!!

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18389&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[lun40119]

Carl, I read that thread top to bottom, still doesn't really clear things up..........seems like alot of back and forth, dancing. Call me so I can tell you what you want to hear, and keep you happy.

I am confused, best maybe Ill take a nap ;)

By the way, car is up and running, with a spool, and 4.88 gears. Stole my dads trans, reverse pattern but no brake. Will have new times shortly. Both tracks were rained out yesterday, so I am trying to talk the wife into going to the Grove with me tonight.

[jsup]

although we have never claimed that our blocks and heads are equal quality as yours
what we do say is we offer quality performance parts at affordable prices i think we should
put it on the line and have an independant 3rd party do a build comparison. our block and heads vs your block and heads i am sure super chevy would love to run this artical now keep in mind i am not in any way claiming that our products are better than dart but that we offer an affordable alternitive. so here is your chance to settle this once and for all.........no more
he said she said lets let our parts do the fighting for us.

thanks

BottomFeeder

Quality being the issue, as you admit your blocks do not measure up to the Dart standard, could you please explain to me what I will be giving up by going with your block. I understand there is a price difference, however, it appears to me that after the necessary cleanup work is done to bring the block to spec, the price difference seems to shrink.

I come to the point where the investment isn’t that different. So now I have a product of unknown quality, unknown materials, unknown QC, unknown production location with arguably, inferior fit and finish.

Dart owns their foundry and does all the machining in a very hi tech environment right here in the US and I know who to call if I have a problem. I don’t speak Chinese, and can’t find a translator, can you explain to me your customer service and how it would work if the block should split in ½ on my third run? Why is it cheaper?

And finally, can you tell me about your track record. Putting numbers up on a dyno is one thing on a fresh motor, how many passes do I get until I have to replace it. A little history would be appreciated.

Sorry if this is a little hard on you, however, I think when you make some big claims and ask for a comparison, we need to set a baseline understanding first, set the rules so to speak, and I don’t see what one pull on a dyno would do. Materials, fit and finish, tolerances play a role on longevity, and I simply don’t see how your suggestion has merit. I can see why Dart would not give this any consideration. They have a history and have already proven it, you're trying to hijack it with a "test" of which criteria is suspect, I see their point. Put your block in a car, make four digit horsepower, and run it all season. How's that for a test. I think that is more fair.

Your position seems to be “we bolt up to the same holes as other blocks and we are cheaper”, is there more we should know?
Regards

[Dart Vader]

Quality being the issue, as you admit your blocks do not measure up to the Dart standard, could you please explain to me what I will be giving up by going with your block. I understand there is a price difference, however, it appears to me that after the necessary cleanup work is done to bring the block to spec, the price difference seems to shrink.

I come to the point where the investment isn’t that different. So now I have a product of unknown quality, unknown materials, unknown QC, unknown production location with arguably, inferior fit and finish.

Dart owns their foundry and does all the machining in a very hi tech environment right here in the US and I know who to call if I have a problem. I don’t speak Chinese, and can’t find a translator, can you explain to me your customer service and how it would work if the block should split in ½ on my third run? Why is it cheaper?

And finally, can you tell me about your track record. Putting numbers up on a dyno is one thing on a fresh motor, how many passes do I get until I have to replace it. A little history would be appreciated.

Sorry if this is a little hard on you, however, I think when you make some big claims and ask for a comparison, we need to set a baseline understanding first, set the rules so to speak, and I don’t see what one pull on a dyno would do. Materials, fit and finish, tolerances play a role on longevity, and I simply don’t see how your suggestion has merit. I can see why Dart would not give this any consideration. They have a history and have already proven it, you're trying to hijack it with a "test" of which criteria is suspect, I see their point. Put your block in a car, make four digit horsepower, and run it all season. How's that for a test. I think that is more fair.

Your position seems to be “we bolt up to the same holes as other blocks and we are cheaper”, is there more we should know?
Regards
Just a minor correction, we don't actually own our foundry. We use a foundry in Wisconsin and one in Ohio, and we are very strict about material control with what they send us.

They are really excellent foundries to work with, but we don't own them.
:D

[jsup]

Just a minor correction, we don't actually own our foundry. We use a foundry in Wisconsin and one in Ohio, and we are very strict about material control with what they send us.

They are really excellent foundries to work with, but we don't own them.
:D

My mistake, thanks for the correction.

[FastAlum434]

As engine builder whose reputation is on the line when using a product as critical to the overall survivability of the package, it scares me to death when you will not release any information on the casting process, the quality control process, or well…..anything!
Reading the aforementioned test results by CNC Blocks, I have more than a little doubt as to the processes that are in place at the facility resulting in a “hit and miss” product.

I’m in the business of building the “standard to which all others are judged” and it doing it quickly so that the cars run down the track/street. There are many dimensions that are checked regardless of the product to ensure that the package is properly set up. I do not, however, wish to continually fix the defects that are coming out of the facility (I’m pretty sure that my labor is more expensive than the Chinese foundry/a dollar a day…). Simply put there is no comparison here, physically or financially…. Sorry for the long post.

[kevin@dart]

As engine builder whose reputation is on the line when using a product as critical to the overall survivability of the package, it scares me to death when you will not release any information on the casting process, the quality control process, or well…..anything!
Reading the aforementioned test results by CNC Blocks, I have more than a little doubt as to the processes that are in place at the facility resulting in a “hit and miss” product.

I’m in the business of building the “standard to which all others are judged” and it doing it quickly so that the cars run down the track/street. There are many dimensions that are checked regardless of the product to ensure that the package is properly set up. I do not, however, wish to continually fix the defects that are coming out of the facility (I’m pretty sure that my labor is more expensive than the Chinese foundry/a dollar a day…). Simply put there is no comparison here, physically or financially…. Sorry for the long post.

Welcome to our little forum. :)

[lun40119]

As engine builder whose reputation is on the line when using a product as critical to the overall survivability of the package, it scares me to death when you will not release any information on the casting process, the quality control process, or well…..anything!
Reading the aforementioned test results by CNC Blocks, I have more than a little doubt as to the processes that are in place at the facility resulting in a “hit and miss” product.

I’m in the business of building the “standard to which all others are judged” and it doing it quickly so that the cars run down the track/street. There are many dimensions that are checked regardless of the product to ensure that the package is properly set up. I do not, however, wish to continually fix the defects that are coming out of the facility (I’m pretty sure that my labor is more expensive than the Chinese foundry/a dollar a day…). Simply put there is no comparison here, physically or financially…. Sorry for the long post.


Great post, welcome to the board.

[poboy racing]

Great Post Justin.


From a racer’s standpoint that writes the checks, I have serious issues with not only using the inferior block, but putting my high end components into an unstable foundation. If the block the fails, so does the $2500 crankshaft, the $6000 worth of cylinder heads usually go bye-bye as well. I guess what I’m getting at is my $2500 billet crank really falls back onto the engine block in many regards. By saving a few bucks when all is said and done at the engine shop, I would be risking multiple thousands of dollars in peripherals that will get thrown out on the track within the first season. To even think about using that block what I would end up doing is building the package with lower grade peripherals thus severely limiting the overall capability of the unit. If racing has taught me anything, you gotta pay to play!

Regards

[WeekendWarrior]

I'm new to the sport and I would like to make a good investment into my weekend car; I read about the ultra expensive race engines all day but have to ask about my application.

If I don’t need billet rods or $6000 worth of cylinder heads, do I really need a Dart engine block? Will the lesser block be okay in a lesser performing package? I mean, it will hold everything together right?

Thanks in advance

WW

[poboy racing]

I'm new to the sport and I would like to make a good investment into my weekend car; I read about the ultra expensive race engines all day but have to ask about my application.

If I don’t need billet rods or $6000 worth of cylinder heads, do I really need a Dart engine block? Will the lesser block be okay in a lesser performing package? I mean, it will hold everything together right?

Thanks in advance

WW

I agree Joanna….we’re talking about apples and oranges here. For your application I think the blocks we are talking about are probably overkill to start with. I would recommend checking out the Dart SHP. You get all the same power and some good features on a quality product that is as dimensionally correct as the competition oriented lines. This will not only save you money during assembly, but will allow your engine to produce the desired output for years to come. Consider a Dart SHP head package for the ultimate in America Made, quality controlled, and factory backed performance.


Hope this helps

[WeekendWarrior]

I agree Joanna….we’re talking about apples and oranges here. For your application I think the blocks we are talking about are probably overkill to start with. I would recommend checking out the Dart SHP. You get all the same power and some good features on a quality product that is as dimensionally correct as the competition oriented lines. This will not only save you money during assembly, but will allow your engine to produce the desired output for years to come. Consider a Dart SHP head package for the ultimate in America Made, quality controlled, and factory backed performance.


Hope this helps


Thanks, I'm going to go look at the SHP and probably pick one up this week. Looks like a good deal.

[Awesome Bill]

although we have never claimed that our blocks and heads are equal quality as yours
what we do say is we offer quality performance parts at affordable prices i think we should
put it on the line and have an independant 3rd party do a build comparison. our block and heads vs your block and heads i am sure super chevy would love to run this artical now keep in mind i am not in any way claiming that our products are better than dart but that we offer an affordable alternitive. so here is your chance to settle this once and for all.........no more
he said she said lets let our parts do the fighting for us.

thanks

BottomFeeder

I think I should ring in here. I am a very loyal DART Product WD and would never claim that they are not one of the best manufactures that really care about their customers or do not try to produce the best product available. THEY do all of the above.

The Dart blocks are by far the best production style block available today along with GM's upper level blocks. Heads, no question, top of the line and will hold their own with anyone's. As far as these cheaper Chinese blocks, that is what they are, I have had 2 of them delivered and was told to test them in any application I chose because of my endless dyno sessions trying to find power.

I had a customer who broke his Dart block because of a serious internal engine failure that I did not do. He called said he was on a budget and only had this much money. I told him I was just assembling a 434cu shortblock as we spoke. Being I have endless dyno pulls with the Dart 227 heads, I have a set of heads, same house cam, carb, intake, oilpan, etc I am getting ready to test. I gave him a low ball price and he asked me to use his top half, which was Brodix T1 set up.

I got the heads, went threw them and fixed a couple minor things and bolt everything together. As for the block, I found the align bore to be dead on .003 small right threw, had to align hone the block, The block was prehoned which I do not care for so bolted the plate on and finished it with the proper stones and the bore was for sure a little softer than Darts. What else can you say. Very little had to be removed for the side rail and none from the bottom for the 4" crank and H-beam 3/8" bolt Pro Comp steel rods. The cam tunnel was a little tricky with the very sharp edges that we played hell with getting the cam bearings in. I left the deck alone but it was within .002" from side to side and front to back. Not to bad. Deck height was 9.023 and 9.025" best to worst. I don't know about the bore centers but were pretty good. So all in all the block was not too bad.

We assembled the engine complete and went to the dyno. We checked leakage @ TDC on 2 cylinders and was under 2% which we are happy with anything under 3%. Fired the engine broke it in and oil pressure was great not a leak anywhere and made the first pull to 6000rpm. On my template, the engine was dead on. No blow buy with no evac at all. After 10 hard dyno pulls, we had 625hp @ 6600 and with these heads, was right in the ball park. The customer put the engine in his 3600lb impala and he first pass was his quickest ever, 10.47 @ almost 130mph. And, he was footbraking the car. He called me and said the engine was as good as his other and very happy.

All in all, the block done what we hoped it would do and expected it to do. It is not a bad block, it is not a perfect block but was waaaaaaaay better than the weak stock GM units that are prone to every sickness you can imagine. If we probed a stock GM unit, the #'s the cnc produced would be triple what Carl found for sure. So to be fair, it is a knock off block but not a bad block. With a cnc race prepp, it could even be a little better. I know that Wheeler is doing a ton of these on his CNC and is pumping these out at some crazy low price. I have seen his block but never used one. We are planning a N2O build on the other block we have and will see what happens. We need to run 8.50 with the small block so we will be putting well over 1000hp on the block.

In retro spec, DARTS price reduction to be more competitive in pricing for the RACER just proves their dedication to bringing the best product available @ better pricing. I still prefer and always will use the DART blocks. They are the best @ this time and are overkill for most applications. And if I pay a little more, even 30% more and have peace of mind that my customer will get the best engine, the cost means nothing. There is always going to be knock offs and in some ways it is good and bad. If your being sold a knock off for the real deal your getting ripped off! Ask questions and make sure your getting a real DART block.

I will be more than glad to do the assembly and dyno testing free of charge on both of the engines you guys want to run side by side. Same rotators, compression, induction, conditions, headers, room temp, engine temp etc, no bull____ either way? Hope this helps

[Awesome Bill]

Where did everybody go?

[lun40119]

I am around fella, was cleaning the shop up today.......ALL DAY!!!

[want-a-be]

LOL...only takes you a day?

Don

[want-a-be]

I will be more than glad to do the assembly and dyno testing free of charge on both of the engines you guys want to run side by side. Same rotators, compression, induction, conditions, headers, room temp, engine temp etc, no bull____ either way? Hope this helps

Sounds like a killer offer Bill....hope someone actually takes you up on it. Rarely have I ever seen comparison tests that I truely agree are apples to apples. Seems like the testers always want to lean towards whoever is paying their bills (advertising dollars that is) I'm sure you wouldn't.

Don

[lun40119]

Here you go Mr. Bottom Feeder answer this..................

I first have to thank Leo at http://www.rlengines.com/ in conjunction with Turbocam which performed an Optical Emission Spectroscopy, I will add Leo has been working on a new anti-wear treatment TX-1 for performance components http://www.rlengines.com/tech/TX1.pdf Guive him a call for more info.

Some of the Key ingredients in cast iron to make it strong are Nickel,Molybdenum, Copper

The Little-M nickel content is 0.149, Molybdenum 0.211, Copper 0.404

Dart SHP Nickel content is 0.071, Molybdenum .016, copper 0.283

Chinese block Nickel content is 0.005, Molybdenum 0.005, Copper 0.020

Leo did the Brinell test by using the Rockwell B Scale and converting it to Brinell scale and he will back this test.

Little-M tested 200

SHP 190

Chinese block 107

I am sure the chinese blocks will vary from block to block and now I see why when I had to line hone the chinese block it kept loading the stones up as it was extremely soft.

[lun40119]

I went to a seminar Saturday at PBM’s warehouses in Laurel MD, and Dick Boyer talked about the PBM block for about 30 minutes. First thing out of his mouth was that the block was cast in China. He was up front about that. He also talked about the hardness among many other things. He also had the block checked for hardness and found it to be 40 less than a Dart. He contacted the appropriate people and had it fixed. The new ones are the same hardness as the Darts. He also had some changes made in the design where more material was needed in certain places.
IMO I think PMB is trying to make this block right. Will it ever be used in a cup motor, or a blown pro-mod??? No. But used in the correct application it should be fine.
Dick talked about a lot of other things in respect to this block and I felt he was genuine. I am not going to talk about it all, but if he chooses he can let everybody know what he said. He did try to blow one up on the dyno and it never hurt the block. Not sure what the blow-by was on it. I don’t remember if he said or if I forgot.
One thing for sure, the similarities between the PMB block and the pro-comp, wheeler or whatever banner it’s being sold under end at the foundry, IMO
He also had them sent out and run across a CMM. Again this was the PBM block, after it was machined.
I have no horse in this race; I am trying to give another perspective to the issue.
What Dick talked about was excellent and I wished it was all printed here, or that all of you could have been at the seminar.

Keith

Mr. Bottom Feeder, would you care to share with us what you did with the first batch of blocks. I am sure we are talking more than 100 or 200 blocks here. And also if you could, please offer up some facts, instead of sales tactics.

I don't have anything invested in this eitherway, but the people who might buy your stuff should probably know.

[CNC BLOCKS]

WOW Check out this statement over on speedtalk.

I asked in an email, where were the blocks cast.. here is the reply from "JP" at WheelerPower..

Our blocks are forged in China. The blocks are checked, magnafluxed, harness tested, machined and clearanced. We have been using these blocks for the past several years w/o any failures. We know they are every bit as good, if not better than a competitors including Dart or Bowtie or..! We use these in anything from street rods, drag cars and circle track, to forced induction 1500hp+ applications.

Then asked if they were PBM blocks..

No. These are our own blocks. We machine and CNC them here in our own 18,000 sq ft machine shop, on the premises.
Thanks,
JP

[Dart Vader]

WOW Check out this statement over on speedtalk.
Wow... that's a gutsy statement.
1,500+ horsepower and better than Dart or Bowtie blocks?

Wheeler must have some magic fairy dust that makes his styrofoam blocks super-strong...

[lun40119]

I guess I am kind of torn bout all this crap. I would be ok if it were a block that they had researched and built, and had made whereever they wanted. But they didn't, its a copy, and then there were serveral lies. That is the part that bugs me. If it was truly their block, and the intended to fill a market void with a less expensive block more power to them. Look how well the SHP block went over. But a knock off just pisses people off. And then to challenge an even better block. That is just silly.

[Awesome Bill]

Wheelier is the supplier for a few people. He does do all the proper machine work in house. Every block goes threw his beautiful facility and his CNC machine. They are clearanced for a 4" crank and H-beam rods, (Hint, Hint, Dart) decked, align honed or bored, ruff bored to 4.120" quaility main studs and billet caps on all 5 positions, also cnc machined debris screen is included with PBM blocks as well as brand new H main and rod bearings, cam bearings and brass freeze plugs, I have Not used any of these, just the 2 I was sent and only used the one with decent succes with a 434. I have seen them, not run them.

[want-a-be]

Well,...there you have it...Bill has given his seal of approval....lol....

Just playing around with you Bill hope you know me by now...lol...

I'm sure these blocks are better then stock....but I'm also sure that they won't compare to Darts quality.

JMO though as I haven't even seen them ok the net....

Don

[Trmnatr]

Well,...there you have it...Bill has given his seal of approval....lol....

Just playing around with you Bill hope you know me by now...lol...

I'm sure these blocks are better then stock....but I'm also sure that they won't compare to Darts quality.

JMO though as I haven't even seen them ok the net....

Don

Serious, Look at pricing say through PBM

Im not gonna post the price but why in the HE!! would someone pay $400 more for the PBM block (for example, we dont know if its the same YET) over the Dart SHP

They need to answer that QUESTION first..................... So why pay more for that block when all of us can get the Dart SHP cheaper??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

Guys you know these china blocks would compete with Darts line of molded plastic blocks :D

[want-a-be]

So why pay more for that block when all of us can get the Dart SHP cheaper??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

Guys you know these china blocks would compete with Darts line of molded plastic blocks :D

lol...plastic....

didn't know they were more money.....:rolleyes:

Don

[Awesome Bill]

Where do you think DART, Brodix and all the rest got theirs? They have all copied because you can't change the basic design, you can only make it stronger if your smart. GM Bowtie stuff started all this long before aftermarket got in place so I think everyone has done a little of the copying to be fair.

[Dart Vader]

Where do you think DART, Brodix and all the rest got theirs? They have all copied because you can't change the basic design, you can only make it stronger if your smart. GM Bowtie stuff started all this long before aftermarket got in place so I think everyone has done a little of the copying to be fair.
So you'd have no problem if someone bought one of your engines, sent it to China and then sold exact copies of your work and knowledge while claiming that they were "innovative", right?

[1997bird]

Serious, Look at pricing say through PBM

Im not gonna post the price but why in the HE!! would someone pay $400 more for the PBM block (for example, we dont know if its the same YET) over the Dart SHP

They need to answer that QUESTION first..................... So why pay more for that block when all of us can get the Dart SHP cheaper??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????

Guys you know these china blocks would compete with Darts line of molded plastic blocks :D

My rep at PBM said that their block is more compairable to the Little M Sportsman block, I'm not sure if any of this helps. :confused:

[Dart Vader]

My rep at PBM said that their block is more compairable to the Little M Sportsman block, I'm not sure if any of this helps. :confused:
It's an exact copy of the Little M sportsman, but from what testing has apparently shown, the material is much worse than the SHP block's and the QC and tolerances are... questionable.

[CNC BLOCKS]

It's an exact copy of the Little M sportsman, but from what testing has apparently shown, the material is much worse than the SHP block's and the QC and tolerances are... questionable.

From what I have seen its a POS

[kevin@dart]

Where do you think DART, Brodix and all the rest got theirs? They have all copied because you can't change the basic design, you can only make it stronger if your smart. GM Bowtie stuff started all this long before aftermarket got in place so I think everyone has done a little of the copying to be fair.

With respect I am sorry Bill.

A very stark difference resides between taking the time and capital to redesign an existing platform for racing, or knocking off a well received design over seas with sub par materials and procedures.

You are right, you can only change the SBC platform to a certain extent. Crap, just about any internal combustion engine. This is common sense...Traditional SBC standard type parts need to mount to it.

It's trade dress ie: Holley against Barry Grant law suit.

Being fair? This holds no water imo..... What we have done with our blocks is good business... Copying almost to a "T" as we have seen is bad business, and the work of people who just want to make a buck.

This isn't over yet as more will be coming down the wire soon. However, we are well aquainted with being copied and prepared for it. Stuff we were doing more than 5 years ago is being advertised as new and exciting with some makers out there.... Which kind of makes you think..... What might Dart be working on in their little room?

just my .02

[Awesome Bill]

No I would not, that is called free enterprize. With Darts Quality and experience, Dart certainly does not have anything to worry about. At best, this adds a little competition and keeps pricing in tach for demand. Let me see, what would GM cars cost if they were the only manufacture. Just like oil companies, electric, water and so on. I find it refreshing and gives the little guy a chance to own a block that will more than likely be better than stock. Carl will have to agree there. I have used 2 of the Pro Comp Chinese blocks and they have done very well. It has put a 434ci engine well under the $10.000.00 range with no drawl backs except I have to fix a few things to make it work. I would not be scared to run the block up to 900hp. But most bracket engines are under 800hp.

DART has the best steel blocks in the business period........... If someone wants to copy them and say its better, you can't stop it. The problem is like bad press, at least it is press. The more you stir this thing, the more press they are going to get. If you truely can't do anything about an infrignment detail or patent, keep quiet about it. My customers get a SHP, Little M or Iron Eagle. If they ask about the Chinese block and want one, they get it if that is all they can do. I make it right and it will live a long time. I hate the Chinese market as well but hey, they all gotta live and if you think they are going away, your more naive then we think.

The difference between a PBM, or (Wheelier) Chinese block is this, PBM has come up with a package just for them. They have had Wheelier add a CNC debris screen which bolts in, Radial clearanced the block for a 4" stroke with H-Beam rods, (hint hint DART), Gives you brass freeze plugs, "H" series Racing Rod and Main Bearings, (5) steel billet ARP studded main caps with the 3 center splayed, and gives you a set of Cam Bearings. All for less than what we as WD buyers pay for a Little M block. And its bored and plate honed and dead tits on!. I have personally seen one, dial bore gauged everything and it was very good. This package can not be purchased retail. This is only for Engine Builders threw PBM. One very bad thing is that they spot end milled .050" deep every head bolt hole, causing stress to pop the top threads right out and weaking the entire reason to have blind holes. Other than that, it sounds like a good deal but like I say, I am a very partial to Dart and intend to stay that way.

Do you know that if you are a KING, the KING does not go around proclaiming he is KING, the people know. Dart does not have to say or do anything, you guys know who you are in this industry. That is why copy cats will always be there and will capitalize on what you say on due from here out. EVERY WONDER WHY THEY HAVE NOT ASK ME TO DO A SIDE BY SIDE FREE DYNO TEST BETWEEN THE 2 BLOCKS? I have still not been taken up on that offer. WHY?

[Dart Vader]

None of the examples you offer have any relevance whatsoever.
How is making an exact copy of someone's product and selling it the same as a rival car company making cars to compete with GM?
We have plenty of competition from plenty of good, upstanding companies that we respect. Companies that actually design their own products.

That's healthy business.
Making a carbon copy of a block out of junk material with little or no QC and then trying to pass it off as being equal or better in quality to a much superior piece? Then someone tests it and suddenly PBM claims they "accidentally" released the wrong info about the block's material content? That's some accident there. And I can only imagines what they are telling random people on the phones when no one can prove what they are saying.

If you think that's good business... well... I think the majority would disagree.

[CNC BLOCKS]

None of the examples you offer have any relevance whatsoever.
How is making an exact copy of someone's product and selling it the same as a rival car company making cars to compete with GM?
We have plenty of competition from plenty of good, upstanding companies that we respect. Companies that actually design their own products.

That's healthy business.
Making a carbon copy of a block out of junk material with little or no QC and then trying to pass it off as being equal or better in quality to a much superior piece? Then someone tests it and suddenly PBM claims they "accidentally" released the wrong info about the block's hardness? That's some accident there. And I can only imagines what they are telling random people on the phones when no one can prove what they are saying.

If you think that's good business... well... I think the majority would disagree.

We have got plenty of phone calls about machining the chinese blocks because the person calling was unaware of the problems we have seen with those blocks and some don't own a PC believe it or not!! and they were told they were as good if not better then a Dart block which we know is BS

After probing one out I can tell you they are a POS and I am susre Bill can't probe a block out for locations either!! But he says he has a CNC machine but never seen a pic of one yet, With a little investigation at the PRI show I can find if I have been lied to or not. Hopefully he has been telling the truth here!!!

I am surprised some one that is a WD for Dart would even think of using one of these look alike blocks and praise them. Some guys will do anything to get work I am not that guy thats for sure.

I am pretty sure as soft as those blocks are there will be accelerated ring wear and lifter bore wear and they won't last like the Dart blocks.

After seeing how far the lifter bores are off in that chinese blocks you can't make the power with those blocks like you could using a Dart block.

[Dart Vader]

Let's try to avoid restarting old battles over machining facilities shall we?
I think that was done to death in another thread.

[lun40119]

I think that if the claim is made that the PBM block or the Procomp block is "spot on" shouldn't that remark be qualified?

[Trmnatr]

We have got plenty of phone calls about machining the chinese blocks because the person calling was unaware of the problems we have seen with those blocks and some don't own a PC believe it or not!! and they were told they were as good if not better then a Dart block which we know is BS

After probing one out I can tell you they are a POS and I am susre Bill can't probe a block out for locations either!! But he says he has a CNC machine but never seen a pic of one yet, With a little investigation at the PRI show I can find if I have been lied to or not. Hopefully he has been telling the truth here!!!

I am surprised some one that is a WD for Dart would even think of using one of these look alike blocks and praise them. Some guys will do anything to get work I am not that guy thats for sure.

I am pretty sure as soft as those blocks are there will be accelerated ring wear and lifter bore wear and they won't last like the Dart blocks.

After seeing how far the lifter bores are off in that chinese blocks you can't make the power with those blocks like you could using a Dart block.

We dont agree much lol , I have to agree with Carl 1000%

I have had more time this week due to restrictions from doctors and have read alot of the threads with info Carl got himself and from another shop

What I dont understand is what I asked a few pages back and I got an answer that the PBM is comparable to the Little M so it is cheaper well thats BS !!!!!

It may be a notch better than stock but I MYSELF would take an 010 block with the mods we like to have done to them and use an 010 before the PBM/China block

This PBM/China block is more money than the SHP COST for all of us (me, carl, bill etc), Around $400 more. How are we saving anything? WE ARE NOT !!!!!!

[CNC BLOCKS]

We dont agree much lol , I have to agree with Carl 1000%

I have had more time this week due to restrictions from doctors and have read alot of the threads with info Carl got himself and from another shop

What I dont understand is what I asked a few pages back and I got an answer that the PBM is comparable to the Little M so it is cheaper well thats BS !!!!!

It may be a notch better than stock but I MYSELF would take an 010 block with the mods we like to have done to them and use an 010 before the PBM/China block

This PBM/China block is more money than the SHP COST for all of us (me, carl, bill etc), Around $400 more. How are we saving anything? WE ARE NOT !!!!!!

Some guys will say and do anything to get work in their shop and will promote this crap and in the long run it will end up costing the customer money!!

I am not that guy as I prefer quality and I want to customer to have a good pecie when it leaves the shop!!!

Those blocks are way to soft and locations on those blocks are not even close to any of the Dart blocks from what I have seen.

Most guys don't see what I see thats for sure!!!!!!!!!!

[Trmnatr]

Some guys will say and do anything to get work in their shop and will promote this crap and in the long run it will end up costing the customer money!!

I am not that guy as I prefer quality and I want to customer to have a good pecie when it leaves the shop!!!
Those blocks are way to soft and locations on those blocks are not even close to any of the Dart blocks from what I have seen.

Most guys don't see what I see thats for sure!!!!!!!!!!

I do too, If I wanted to build a customer some POS boat anchor this block may be good lol

What also is crazy, Mr. Boyer stated he was sorry and the high nickel was his mistake.

Ok I can understand people make a mistake. Look at the SITE as of today. I didnt log in to our pricing and saw the price of the PBM block and I think im having heart failure lol $2,155.74

Still listed as "High Nickel"

http://www.pbm-erson.com/store.php?catId=754

[CNC BLOCKS]

I looked on their site and it stills High Nickel HMMMMMM

http://www.pbm-erson.com/store.php?catId=754

[Awesome Bill]

I have never said they are as good as Dart Blocks, I said there is always a place in the market for this stuff when it pops up and Companies like Brodix, Dart, Worlds, Donovon etc etc can't do one thing about it so the more you talk about it the worst it gets. Being a Major WD for Dart, I sell my very fair share of their product. I have never bashed Dart about its products or machine operations like some other people on here have in wide open public forum. If you would like me to repost that debacle, let me know. I do think there was a spanken and we will not hear anything like that from him again.

What I do know about PBM blocks is that somehow people from companies like Dart and World think they are selling thousands of these, news flash, they are not. I talked to my rep and he says they are just fill ins for people who choose to purchase them for some reason. What I can say about PBM is at least they put a full race package together and have taken the time to pay someone to RACE PREP and FULLY CNC all their blocks. PBM blocks are not fresh off the boat. As I am told they go right threw WHEELERS real state of the art imaculet maching center. If their off bad, he sends them back. He does qualify each block before he totally race preps it.

On the other hand, my PBM guy says they are selling the SHP block and the #'s are even better. They are still moving a lot of the Dart product. Personally, I have had 10-1 ratio on my BBC versus small blocks for over 2 years now. The price of my 565ci engines is the same as the SBC! It also makes 900+hp for the same money as the small block can on make 700+ maybe depending on application.

Again, the real Chinese block off the boat needs a lot of work, but for a block under $1000.00 my price,some people may want them. In this economy, I have to adjust my business to survive. I am not closing my doors or sending any customer away because I won't sell or machine a product he has chosen. I will assemble, as we are doing right now any blowed up other competitors engines, make any size or make engine, even a 250ci inline we are doing right now with a full blown pro street set up, to keep business and funds to operate and keep people in a job. I personally have laid off no one and have had to hire 1!. So that is better than standing around doing nothing.

Some people may be able to say I will not work on that because its junk, well I am not them, I have 14 people who need their jobs. I will not assemble any junk as people are saying, but I will make sure everything I assembly is dead on as close as it needs to be to make decent power for whatever a customer finally decides.

[CNC BLOCKS]

What I do know about PBM blocks is that somehow people from companies like Dart and World think they are selling thousands of these, news flash, they are not. I talked to my rep and he says they are just fill ins for people who choose to purchase them for some reason. What I can say about PBM is at least they put a full race package together and have taken the time to pay someone to RACE PREP and FULLY CNC all their blocks. PBM blocks are not fresh off the boat. As I am told they go right threw WHEELERS real state of the art imaculet maching center. If their off bad, he sends them back. He does qualify each block before he totally race preps it.


Thats funny Bill the block I have came from Wheeler and that one the lifter bores are not at 41 degrees and not in the right location, the front of the block is sticks out .020 which does pull the cam ahead in the block, but the lifter bores are not ahead in the block .020 a flat tappet cam would not last that way.

I guess he don't check them for material make up either and this block has no nickel in it either.

Ya the chinese blocks would be my first choice LOL

[want-a-be]

I don't recall him saying it would be his first choice....only that if the customer makes the decision he has to live with it,...within reason of course.
Don

[CNC BLOCKS]

I don't recall him saying it would be his first choice....only that if the customer makes the decision he has to live with it,...within reason of course.
Don

Again, the real Chinese block off the boat needs a lot of work, but for a block under $1000.00 my price,some people may want them. In this economy, I have to adjust my business to survive. I am not closing my doors or sending any customer away because I won't sell or machine a product he has chosen.

I guess I am reading this differently but I am loyal to Dart as Dart needs the sales as well and for every chinese block Bill uses he cuts Dart out of some money.

Carl

[want-a-be]

lol...you could say the same about GM blocks....but I don't hear you saying it. I doubt Bill would pick the chinese junk over the Dart block as you are trying to imply, if he has the choice. As I read the quote in the post you decided to post it says,...."some people may want them." I don't read this as Bill wants them, I read it as his customer may want them. Bill, and you, can only guide his customers in the right directions. But in the end it's always the customer paying the bills and making the decision.

Don

[CNC BLOCKS]

lol...you could say the same about GM blocks....but I don't hear you saying it. I doubt Bill would pick the chinese junk over the Dart block as you are trying to imply, if he has the choice. As I read the quote in the post you decided to post it says,...."some people may want them." I don't read this as Bill wants them, I read it as his customer may want them. Bill, and you, can only guide his customers in the right directions. But in the end it's always the customer paying the bills and making the decision.

Don

So if is customer wanted hyper pistons and a cast crank he would put them as welll:D:D

I do use some Bowtie blocks because some rules say no after market blocks.

I have turned down work on the Chinese blocks and from what I have seen it would cost to much to make them right over using a good block.

[want-a-be]

So if is customer wanted hyper pistons and a cast crank he would put them as welll:D:D

I do use some Bowtie blocks because some rules say no after market blocks.

I have turned down work on the Chinese blocks and from what I have seen it would cost to much to make them right over using a good block.

wellllll carl,....you know,... it's not everyone that lives in the perfect world that you do....lol you must need oxygen to live as high on the hog as you do....

Hyper pistons and cast crank....lol

I've built a few mid 500hp and up engines using those very things. For both drag and dirt. Not had one come apart yet... are you telling me you aren't able to do the same??? With all the god like talent and equipment you have at your facility?

you've turned down work on these blocks? Wasn't it you, saying on the Dart Board, that you had performed some of your wonderful magic on a customers chinese block? I've refused working on stuff I didn't like the looks of too....big deal, get over it...

You haven't machined up anything but Dart products in your shop??? If so, gasp:eek: you mean you sold something other then Dart to make money from?!?

Lay off someone else trying to make a living the same way you are. Seems all you are about is the money and not helping guys out with their stuff. Well...unless you make a buck that is.:rolleyes:

end of rant, and done with this conversation.

[CNC BLOCKS]

wellllll carl,....you know,... it's not everyone that lives in the perfect world that you do....lol you must need oxygen to live as high on the hog as you do....

Hyper pistons and cast crank....lol

I've built a few mid 500hp and up engines using those very things. For both drag and dirt. Not had one come apart yet... are you telling me you aren't able to do the same??? With all the god like talent and equipment you have at your facility?

you've turned down work on these blocks? Wasn't it you, saying on the Dart Board, that you had performed some of your wonderful magic on a customers chinese block? I've refused working on stuff I didn't like the looks of too....big deal, get over it...

You haven't machined up anything but Dart products in your shop??? If so, gasp:eek: you mean you sold something other then Dart to make money from?!?

Lay off someone else trying to make a living the same way you are. Seems all you are about is the money and not helping guys out with their stuff. Well...unless you make a buck that is.:rolleyes:

end of rant, and done with this conversation.


I can tell you this the guys over at Dart are not happy with Bills post !!!

you've turned down work on these blocks? Wasn't it you, saying on the Dart Board, that you had performed some of your wonderful magic on a customers chinese block?

Please find that post on me machining a chinese block as I have only had one in the shop and its still setting here collecting dust and I have no use for it.

Buy the way I help alot of guys out all over the country and world with what we build and the machine work we offer. I can pic and choose what I wnat to do and between an engine shop a CNC blue printing shop and trucking business I do all right.

Plus I am alot of other boards helping guys out and I am not a want a be!!!

How many blocks do machine and send out all over the world:D:

I think I know what you mean with a name WANT-A-BE:D:

And we don't use cast cranks or hyper pistons in our builds as we do use a lot of Callies cranks and rods and we use quite a few of the Kings cranks as well. We a re WD with alot of top companies out there so we can choose what ever we want.

[want-a-be]

lol...if I had any feelings at all they may have been hurt...lololol But, no such luck, I couldn't care less. Carl you're so funny. I love how easy you are to play.

Don

[CNC BLOCKS]

lol...if I had any feelings at all they may have been hurt...lololol But, no such luck, I couldn't care less. Carl you're so funny. I love how easy you are to play.

Don


YA right!!!!!!!!!!!

[Trmnatr]

I can tell you this the guys over at Dart are not happy with Bills post !!!

Why would that be?

I would like Dart Vader to comment on this too

I dont see in any way where Bill said the PBM block is better. If Dart does have a problem with what Bill said they must be worried about the block selling which I dont care if they sell 500 PBM blocks its not gonna effect the sale of Darts blocks

Bill said he wuld like to use the Dart block but if the paying customer wants the PBM block he will use it

Now IMO if a customer doesnt want to do it your way its "NO WARRANTY"

We dont have issues with hyper pistons either, have used many sets of them. Yes i prefer forged. Our old 400 had hypers in it and ran 10.40's out of an OE hyper piston, OE crank, OE heads and Rods

PS: Do you know who is gonna be buying the PBM blocks? Guys with stock blocks. Guys that want a performance block will be GM Performance (Bowtie), World or Dart PERIOD

The guys with 400hp street engines that think they have 600hp will be the ones using the PBM blocks

[lun40119]

Here is one Butch.......

None of the examples you offer have any relevance whatsoever.
How is making an exact copy of someone's product and selling it the same as a rival car company making cars to compete with GM?
We have plenty of competition from plenty of good, upstanding companies that we respect. Companies that actually design their own products.

That's healthy business.
Making a carbon copy of a block out of junk material with little or no QC and then trying to pass it off as being equal or better in quality to a much superior piece? Then someone tests it and suddenly PBM claims they "accidentally" released the wrong info about the block's material content? That's some accident there. And I can only imagines what they are telling random people on the phones when no one can prove what they are saying.

If you think that's good business... well... I think the majority would disagree.

[lun40119]

Another one..........

So you'd have no problem if someone bought one of your engines, sent it to China and then sold exact copies of your work and knowledge while claiming that they were "innovative", right?

[lun40119]

How many you need?

With respect I am sorry Bill.

A very stark difference resides between taking the time and capital to redesign an existing platform for racing, or knocking off a well received design over seas with sub par materials and procedures.

You are right, you can only change the SBC platform to a certain extent. Crap, just about any internal combustion engine. This is common sense...Traditional SBC standard type parts need to mount to it.

It's trade dress ie: Holley against Barry Grant law suit.

Being fair? This holds no water imo..... What we have done with our blocks is good business... Copying almost to a "T" as we have seen is bad business, and the work of people who just want to make a buck.

This isn't over yet as more will be coming down the wire soon. However, we are well aquainted with being copied and prepared for it. Stuff we were doing more than 5 years ago is being advertised as new and exciting with some makers out there.... Which kind of makes you think..... What might Dart be working on in their little room?

just my .02

[CNC BLOCKS]

Why would that be?

I would like Dart Vader to comment on this too

I dont see in any way where Bill said the PBM block is better. If Dart does have a problem with what Bill said they must be worried about the block selling which I dont care if they sell 500 PBM blocks its not gonna effect the sale of Darts blocks

Bill said he wuld like to use the Dart block but if the paying customer wants the PBM block he will use it

Now IMO if a customer doesnt want to do it your way its "NO WARRANTY"

We dont have issues with hyper pistons either, have used many sets of them. Yes i prefer forged. Our old 400 had hypers in it and ran 10.40's out of an OE hyper piston, OE crank, OE heads and Rods

PS: Do you know who is gonna be buying the PBM blocks? Guys with stock blocks. Guys that want a performance block will be GM Performance (Bowtie), World or Dart PERIOD

The guys with 400hp street engines that think they have 600hp will be the ones using the PBM blocks

See Jake had to straighten out again and your always tring to cause train wreck look what you did over on the YELLOW BULLET site and the lock up the thread up and I even warned you about that one.

[kevin@dart]

How many you need?


To clarify I wouldn't say I am not happy. I posted because I didn't agree with what he said.

People can offer what they want in their shops. It's their rep on the line, not our product, and I wanted to state we are more often than not the subject of imitation.


Maybe sometime in the future gearheads will get together to have engine parts parties like the woman who do the knock off purse parties. lol

[lun40119]

So if you are not "unhappy", then you must be happy...............;) I am up for a connecting rod party.

[CNC BLOCKS]

Spent some time with Richard Maskins today and he told me that his 300 dollars off on the Little-M blocks is not going to end at the end of the month like was origianly planed but the price was going to remain the same as it is right now.

[Trmnatr]

See Jake had to straighten out again and your always tring to cause train wreck look what you did over on the YELLOW BULLET site and the lock up the thread up and I even warned you about that one.

Thats BS Carl, Posted photos of the new intake and people posted stating it was junk and wont work however it was proven on the dyno on a hyd roller engine over 20hp more than the same intake as cast so how is it junk intake if it makes 20hp more than as cast (it has since made more hp over the as cast one on a solid roller high compression engine, you must stop and look the engine that made over 20hp with this ported intake was a pump gas low compression low rpm hyd roller engine that should have had an rpm air gap on it)

Sort of funny an intake company will be producing an "as cast" manifold with him designing the intake, just wait to see.

It was offered by many people (myself, him, Chad) to put up or shut up that they supply there best ported intake up against his and nobody would do it they just kept running their mouth but wont put the money where there mouth/fingers on kep board are

We offered to pay for dyno testing and all on any ones dyno. If your gonna make a claim (not you, but people who were) that my intake he ported is junk and wont make power bring your junk on or shut the he!! up , His intakes have proven their self on the race track and the cars run quicker

Maybe you may get 20 more hp with a Wilson but also $600 more, Those dollars per hp dont add up. I have had people ask me "WTF was wrong with people in that thread? Did they ever take the dyno test offer?"

All I can say is no they didnt. Why? Probally because if their intake did make more hp it would be 20hp and their porting is only $600 more. Wilson Manifolds really showed that they are two year olds by all the crying, All they are online for is to knock the competitors products and thats including this one and others too.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184597

Post by Gabby @ Wilson
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3126966&postcount=16

Mikey asked this to Gabby @ Wilson
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3127014&postcount=17

Gee look at the answer Gabby @ Wilson gave, no trademarks or patents yet B!TCHS that someone stole their design which it is not a copy
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3127123&postcount=18

Curtis Boggs and Wilson are trying to compare a NASCAR manifold to this bracket race manifold, Maybe we should compare a Pro Stock manifold to it and call it junk because its not like the Pro Stock one
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3127269&postcount=30

The guy who ported the manifold said it in very clear english
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3127504&postcount=51

CHAD SPEIER SUMS IT UP RIGHT HERE
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3128441&postcount=60

When someone puts up the so called best 23° ported manifold and it makes more power we will say so. Myself, Bryce and Chad. We wont even be in the dyno cell when the manifolds are swapped, We wont even see the competitions manifold but no one took that offer? Why because its proven in NASCAR well thats a bunch of BS because thats at least a $1000 to $1500 intake, not a $400 deal. The price difference the so called best NASCAR intake better make alot more than 20hp more than ours

I will say it again. They were told PUT IT UP, OR SHUT UP. I wonder why they wont, oh because its proven in NASCAR.

Well Any excuse is better than none.

Now back on to the Dart deal here. I cause trian wrecks Carl?????? You better look at some train wrecks you cause always bringing up old $hit.

I want you and your eye balls to show me where Jake set me straight? I simply stated people who need an aftermarket block have $$ invested in their program and they are gonna stick with Dart and the only ones who will be using this PBM/China block are guys who would be using a GM block if this PBM/China block didnt exist such as guys who wouldnt even be looking at a Dart block

AGAIN, All i stated if you read Carl is if a customer doesnt want to buy a Dart block thats up to the customer. If he wants a PBM block thats what he wants. Myself i wouldnt use one unless i put down NO WARRANTY, Warranty you get only if you follow my guidelines and buy the parts i say

I hate to say it but there is a market for this block, People who have a mild 275hp-400hp street engine will be buying this block. These people who will be buying this block would other wise have a GM block so the sales of these junk blocks are not gonna effect Dart in any way.

The racers and high hp street cars will still run Dart as they want their $hit to hold up. Below is exactly what i said which is like a friggin copy here

A perfect example of the paying customer. If the customer wants the cheap block give it to them, An example would be Dart wanting everybody to buy aluminum heads but when the customer wants iron heads thats what the customer wants and it pays the bills

Originally Posted by Trmnatr
Why would that be?

I would like Dart Vader to comment on this too

I dont see in any way where Bill said the PBM block is better. If Dart does have a problem with what Bill said they must be worried about the block selling which I dont care if they sell 500 PBM blocks its not gonna effect the sale of Darts blocks

Bill said he wuld like to use the Dart block but if the paying customer wants the PBM block he will use it

Now IMO if a customer doesnt want to do it your way its "NO WARRANTY"

We dont have issues with hyper pistons either, have used many sets of them. Yes i prefer forged. Our old 400 had hypers in it and ran 10.40's out of an OE hyper piston, OE crank, OE heads and Rods

PS: Do you know who is gonna be buying the PBM blocks? Guys with stock blocks. Guys that want a performance block will be GM Performance (Bowtie), World or Dart PERIOD

The guys with 400hp street engines that think they have 600hp will be the ones using the PBM blocks

[Dart Vader]

I'm gonna go ahead and offer my thoughts in a non-official capacity here...

They carbon copied Dart's block. At various times they have claimed that their copy was as good as or better than the SHP block and/or the Little M Sportsman block. Which is 100% bull.

They lied about the material composition of the block and claimed it was an accident after people discovered the lie.

They wouldn't state where the block was cast for quite some time and even after they were finally backed into a corner they still won't state where it is machined.

They have been lying to people on the phones about where they are cast, what they are made of, and what they are capable of.

I personally don't give a damn how many or few of them they sell. What I see is; Steal, lie, lie, lie, etc... Forgive me if I don't personally like or trust them, and forgive me if I think their intention is to try and weasel people into buying their crappy block as more than a stock replacement.


As a quick addendum - I'm not upset with Bill, he can sell whatever he likes. It isn't mine or Dart's business to tell him what to sell or what not to sell.

[Trmnatr]

I'm gonna go ahead and offer my thoughts in a non-official capacity here...

They carbon copied Dart's block. At various times they have claimed that their copy was as good as or better than the SHP block and/or the Little M Sportsman block. Which is 100% bull.

They lied about the material composition of the block and claimed it was an accident after people discovered the lie.

They wouldn't state where the block was cast for quite some time and even after they were finally backed into a corner they still won't state where it is machined.

They have been lying to people on the phones about where they are cast, what they are made of, and what they are capable of.

I personally don't give a damn how many or few of them they sell. What I see is; Steal, lie, lie, lie, etc... Forgive me if I don't personally like or trust them, and forgive me if I think their intention is to try and weasel people into buying their crappy block as more than a stock replacement.


As a quick addendum - I'm not upset with Bill, he can sell whatever he likes. It isn't mine or Dart's business to tell him what to sell or what not to sell.

I agree with everything you said , I for one wont be using one unless a customer requests it and i will steer them away but if its what they want and they dont use one of the options i offer (fully modified GM, Dart, World, Bowtie) then they sign FIRST stating there is NO WARRANTY WHAT SO EVER, 30 second warranty from the time its loaded up on his truck LOL

DartVader, some questions

Do you agree with what I said there ^^^?

Do you agree that people pushing serious HP and cant use a modified factory block will have so much money invested that they will be looking for a better unit such as Dart, Bowtie, World etc?

Do you also feel that the only ones using this china block will be the street guys who would only own a GM block at there power level (350-400) meaning if this block was not out the only thing they would be using is the GM unit?

Now just some opinions, would like to know if DartVader does agree
- yes its a copy but again there is ONLY so much you can do to a block, basically they all look the same as they have the same locations for holes, bores etc

-i feel its more of a copy (not in looks because there are only so many ways to make a block where everything fits) in advertising because they are taking Darts advertising and saying its stronger than little m, can be compared to little m, and i think its more of a copy of darts advertising because again there are only so many ways to make a block look different

- i feel its a piece of $hit that shouldnt be here but IF people use them for high hp Dart will make more money because when there junk BLOWS the flock up with the cheap block lessons will be learned and then Dart will have LOYAL customers that blew their $hit up with the junk block

Question, Does Dart have a patent or trademark on the design of the block?

[Dart Vader]

I can't really say what the market will do with their block, but I do know that they are trying hard to sell it to the same market that buys the SHP block... will it be successful like the SHP? Of course not, but it's still a slap in the face from someone who was a partner in the market.

And yeah, I do think blocks can be different. There are a lot of design points in our blocks that are really well engineered. If you look at World's oiling systems, for example, they just aren't as well engineered as ours. The way things are implemented makes a big difference. They aren't all just copies of each other.

We do, of course, have intellectual rights to our block designs. But I can not make any comment regarding any legal issues involving this matter.

[CNC BLOCKS]

Thats BS Carl, Posted photos of the new intake and people posted stating it was junk and wont work however it was proven on the dyno on a hyd roller engine over 20hp more than the same intake as cast so how is it junk intake if it makes 20hp more than as cast (it has since made more hp over the as cast one on a solid roller high compression engine, you must stop and look the engine that made over 20hp with this ported intake was a pump gas low compression low rpm hyd roller engine that should have had an rpm air gap on it)

Sort of funny an intake company will be producing an "as cast" manifold with him designing the intake, just wait to see.

It was offered by many people (myself, him, Chad) to put up or shut up that they supply there best ported intake up against his and nobody would do it they just kept running their mouth but wont put the money where there mouth/fingers on kep board are

We offered to pay for dyno testing and all on any ones dyno. If your gonna make a claim (not you, but people who were) that my intake he ported is junk and wont make power bring your junk on or shut the he!! up , His intakes have proven their self on the race track and the cars run quicker

Maybe you may get 20 more hp with a Wilson but also $600 more, Those dollars per hp dont add up. I have had people ask me "WTF was wrong with people in that thread? Did they ever take the dyno test offer?"

All I can say is no they didnt. Why? Probally because if their intake did make more hp it would be 20hp and their porting is only $600 more. Wilson Manifolds really showed that they are two year olds by all the crying, All they are online for is to knock the competitors products and thats including this one and others too.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184597

Post by Gabby @ Wilson
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3126966&postcount=16

Mikey asked this to Gabby @ Wilson
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3127014&postcount=17

Gee look at the answer Gabby @ Wilson gave, no trademarks or patents yet B!TCHS that someone stole their design which it is not a copy
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3127123&postcount=18

Curtis Boggs and Wilson are trying to compare a NASCAR manifold to this bracket race manifold, Maybe we should compare a Pro Stock manifold to it and call it junk because its not like the Pro Stock one
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3127269&postcount=30

The guy who ported the manifold said it in very clear english
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3127504&postcount=51

CHAD SPEIER SUMS IT UP RIGHT HERE
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3128441&postcount=60

When someone puts up the so called best 23° ported manifold and it makes more power we will say so. Myself, Bryce and Chad. We wont even be in the dyno cell when the manifolds are swapped, We wont even see the competitions manifold but no one took that offer? Why because its proven in NASCAR well thats a bunch of BS because thats at least a $1000 to $1500 intake, not a $400 deal. The price difference the so called best NASCAR intake better make alot more than 20hp more than ours

I will say it again. They were told PUT IT UP, OR SHUT UP. I wonder why they wont, oh because its proven in NASCAR.

Well Any excuse is better than none.

Now back on to the Dart deal here. I cause trian wrecks Carl?????? You better look at some train wrecks you cause always bringing up old $hit.

I want you and your eye balls to show me where Jake set me straight? I simply stated people who need an aftermarket block have $$ invested in their program and they are gonna stick with Dart and the only ones who will be using this PBM/China block are guys who would be using a GM block if this PBM/China block didnt exist such as guys who wouldnt even be looking at a Dart block

AGAIN, All i stated if you read Carl is if a customer doesnt want to buy a Dart block thats up to the customer. If he wants a PBM block thats what he wants. Myself i wouldnt use one unless i put down NO WARRANTY, Warranty you get only if you follow my guidelines and buy the parts i say

I hate to say it but there is a market for this block, People who have a mild 275hp-400hp street engine will be buying this block. These people who will be buying this block would other wise have a GM block so the sales of these junk blocks are not gonna effect Dart in any way.

The racers and high hp street cars will still run Dart as they want their $hit to hold up. Below is exactly what i said which is like a friggin copy here

A perfect example of the paying customer. If the customer wants the cheap block give it to them, An example would be Dart wanting everybody to buy aluminum heads but when the customer wants iron heads thats what the customer wants and it pays the bills

Originally Posted by Trmnatr
Why would that be?

I would like Dart Vader to comment on this too

I dont see in any way where Bill said the PBM block is better. If Dart does have a problem with what Bill said they must be worried about the block selling which I dont care if they sell 500 PBM blocks its not gonna effect the sale of Darts blocks

Bill said he wuld like to use the Dart block but if the paying customer wants the PBM block he will use it

Now IMO if a customer doesnt want to do it your way its "NO WARRANTY"

We dont have issues with hyper pistons either, have used many sets of them. Yes i prefer forged. Our old 400 had hypers in it and ran 10.40's out of an OE hyper piston, OE crank, OE heads and Rods

PS: Do you know who is gonna be buying the PBM blocks? Guys with stock blocks. Guys that want a performance block will be GM Performance (Bowtie), World or Dart PERIOD

The guys with 400hp street engines that think they have 600hp will be the ones using the PBM blocks


Butch

I always post my own thoughts on what I do as for you on the other hand are alwyas posting what every one else is doing or what some one else is said or done.

You don't deal with what I do or even seen what I have seen and like I said morre then once don't post all I know.

As far as the china block in a 400 horse application its junk know matter how you look at it having the cam ahead in the block .020 more then the lifter bores a flat tappet cam will not live in that enviorment.

You use stock blocks , Probe pisotns, probe rods and hyper pistons in what you assemble but your that type of guy!!

How many Little-M's or Big-M's did you buy this year?? or even SHP blocks???

Just rying to compare apples to apples here!!!!!!!!!!

Its interesting here at the Pri-SHOW as your name has been brought up quite a few times and most guys have the same opinion of you which I find quite interesting LOL

GEEE I was looking for your both at the PRI show with that 327 crank, Probe pistons and rods LOL

I have met a lot of guys here from all the sites I post on and the chinese topic is very popular here thatrs for sure.

Its been an interesting show thats for sure.

IT WOULD BE NICE IF YOU WOULD STOP CRYING TO THE MODERATORS ON THE SITES I POST ON ABOUT ME AND WHAT I POST ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well back to walking around!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lun40119]

You guys fight like brothers................:D


Carl, get Tom a Miller Lite from me, wait.....get him 10. Cash is in the mail :D

[Trmnatr]

I can't really say what the market will do with their block, but I do know that they are trying hard to sell it to the same market that buys the SHP block... will it be successful like the SHP? Of course not, but it's still a slap in the face from someone who was a partner in the market.

And yeah, I do think blocks can be different. There are a lot of design points in our blocks that are really well engineered. If you look at World's oiling systems, for example, they just aren't as well engineered as ours. The way things are implemented makes a big difference. They aren't all just copies of each other.

We do, of course, have intellectual rights to our block designs. But I can not make any comment regarding any legal issues involving this matter.

I understand the legal matters, being you have rights sue the HE!! out of them

Their block will have the market to replace the stock GM blocks and thats it

My personal opinion the market needs one more block but a good one. We have Bowtie blocks that are from Dart SHP to Little M and then we have Dart SHP, Dart Little M and World as the ONLY blocks IMO

Lets look at the lower ones
Stock GM $599
Dart SHP $1,455.00

I think we need a 4" block that is clearanced for 3.75" stroke, has thicker walls than stock but not like the Little M and all , Ductile caps, minimal machine work for say $899

Call it a "Street Block" and rate it for 500hp , Heck maybe even the circle track guys would allow use of them being a factory replacable block

[Trmnatr]

You guys fight like brothers................:D


Carl, get Tom a Miller Lite from me, wait.....get him 10. Cash is in the mail :D

True

Carl, Stop crying to the moderators???? Just so you know the thread where we got to doing this the OP of the thread PM'd a mod and they sent myself and you a carbon copy

How do i post what someone else does when all i use is hypers or 327 cranks or probe pistons Carl?

Did I say i would tell anybody to go use that POS block? No

You state hyper pistons always fail, Gee I wonder why we can use them without failure. I have many sets out there on the street

We ran 10.40's for years with hypers @ 490hp and now are 520-540hp but im wrong there because everyone says we are showing 550-600hp which is bull crap, we are 520-540

No builder, assembler or general machine shop is gonna buy or sell as many blocks as "YOU THE BLOCK SHOP" and you state thats what your niche is

283, 302, 327, 250, 400, 396. 427, 454 is the way to do it

Im from the school of build the junk like factory bored over, but many do strokers now days. I guess i should shut the he!! up because i have a 383 on the stand right now :rolleyes: I prefer factory type engines.

Did you CNC the lobster (what ever your meal was) @ Red Lobster to make sure it was to blue print specs :D

[want-a-be]

[QUOTE=CNC BLOCKS;7027]
You use stock blocks , Probe pisotns, probe rods and hyper pistons in what you assemble but your that type of guy!!
QUOTE]

I really like how you can talk down to someone with your nose so high in the air. Some day that will work against you.

It should have when you had Dart in your sights raking them through the mud. You may choose to deny it but others reconize it. Some day you'll aim that bile you regurgitate at the right person and you'll reap what you sow.

[CNC BLOCKS]

[QUOTE=CNC BLOCKS;7027]
You use stock blocks , Probe pisotns, probe rods and hyper pistons in what you assemble but your that type of guy!!
QUOTE]

I really like how you can talk down to someone with your nose so high in the air. Some day that will work against you.

It should have when you had Dart in your sights raking them through the mud. You may choose to deny it but others reconize it. Some day you'll aim that bile you regurgitate at the right person and you'll reap what you sow.

I have seen butch post a lot of BS over the years and I do tend to call him out on it, Go through his posts 4 or 5 years ago and see what he was about then, He has sure blead info off quite a few other people.

That why I told him not to call or email me and other don't answer him either.

When I found the problem with the SHP blocks I didn't drag Dart through the mud as they did cure the issue that was going on with the main lines.

Actually after talking to Richard and Dave at the Pri Show there sending me a couple of new pieces to look over when I get back from the show. And I am sure I have helped Dart a ton with what I have posted on the chinese block issues.

ARE YOU GOING TO CRY ABOUT THE THREADS I POSTED ON THE CHINESE BLOCKS AS WELL.

I certainly do alot of advetising for them and it pays off.:D

I certainly call a spade a spade and an ace an ace.

Send me your address and I will send you a couple of cryng towels.:D:D

Well back to the show for the last day

[want-a-be]

Don't need a crying towel at all.

on the SHP mains...why did you have to post it all over the net instead of just calling Dart and keep everything in house?

I couldn't care less about whats going on between you and Butch thats between you.

I just don't like you or what your about.

I call a dick head a dick head...

[CNC BLOCKS]

Don't need a crying towel at all.

on the SHP mains...why did you have to post it all over the net instead of just calling Dart and keep everything in house?

I couldn't care less about whats going on between you and Butch thats between you.

I just don't like you or what your about.

I call a dick head a dick head...


Well I did call Dart and their was no retrun call but Richard called and everything was taken care of and worked out perfectly.


I call a dick head a dick head.../

Well you shouldn't be looking in the mirror......:D:D

I just don't like you or what your about.

I do need your address thats for sure and I well send a box of them HMMMMM:D

[Trmnatr]

[QUOTE=want-a-be;7050]

I have seen butch post a lot of BS over the years and I do tend to call him out on it, Go through his posts 4 or 5 years ago and see what he was about then, He has sure blead info off quite a few other people.

That why I told him not to call or email me and other don't answer him either.

When I found the problem with the SHP blocks I didn't drag Dart through the mud as they did cure the issue that was going on with the main lines.

Actually after talking to Richard and Dave at the Pri Show there sending me a couple of new pieces to look over when I get back from the show. And I am sure I have helped Dart a ton with what I have posted on the chinese block issues.

ARE YOU GOING TO CRY ABOUT THE THREADS I POSTED ON THE CHINESE BLOCKS AS WELL.

I certainly do alot of advetising for them and it pays off.:D

I certainly call a spade a spade and an ace an ace.

Send me your address and I will send you a couple of cryng towels.:D:D

Well back to the show for the last day

You know whats funny Carl, you said "Go through his posts 4 or 5 years ago and see what he was about then, He has sure blead info off quite a few other people."

Thats kind of funny because NEVER did i get on any forums until NOV 2007 , So how can someone look at posts 4-5 years ago of mine?

#1 nobody does $hit that I do, Most guys build big cubic inch small blocks and big blocks, I do factory cubic inch stuff that makes power

Crying towels lol

[CNC BLOCKS]

[QUOTE=CNC BLOCKS;7052]

You know whats funny Carl, you said "Go through his posts 4 or 5 years ago and see what he was about then, He has sure blead info off quite a few other people."



I don't think I have had to bleed off any one as I am not like you Butch.

I met alot of guys from the various forums I post on and its pretty interesting what some of them think about you and I can tell you this Butch I am not far off :D

I guess Jake had to set you straight on his pistons over on the Yellow bullet site.

[lun40119]

Now I am in the middle of this poop slinging................:D He did say that he thought all Mahle pistons were 4032. I said that most of the proseries stuff was 2618, except for the 2-barrel stuff, and then it got twisted around in the last post, so basically he was telling me what I was trying to tell him for a full page of posts. I love it when I get to learn............

[Trmnatr]

[QUOTE=Trmnatr;7069]


I don't think I have had to bleed off any one as I am not like you Butch.

I met alot of guys from the various forums I post on and its pretty interesting what some of them think about you and I can tell you this Butch I am not far off :D

I guess Jake had to set you straight on his pistons over on the Yellow bullet site.

Dude you read WTH you want to read

I said MOST if not all (but stated I have not used many of them, I dont like them) Mahle pistons are 4032, I never said whats in Jakes engine because I have no f**king clue and dont really care

If you look in the links to Mahle that i posted and he posted, Most MAHLE pistons are 4032 as i stated

[Trmnatr]

Now I am in the middle of this poop slinging................:D He did say that he thought all Mahle pistons were 4032. I said that most of the proseries stuff was 2618, except for the 2-barrel stuff, and then it got twisted around in the last post, so basically he was telling me what I was trying to tell him for a full page of posts. I love it when I get to learn............

I think we were saying the same thing but I was saying most were 4032 and you were saying some are 2618 :eek: Damn i think we just feel we have to fight some

[lun40119]

Jesus Butch, there are two lines of pistons..................2 TWO 2. Just like every other line of pistons. Crap man. There are Power Pak pistons, and Pro series pistons. two, different alloys. One is 2618, and the other is 4032. I am just rolling on the floor. I tried to explain that to you for an entire page over there. Do you get it now? I can't stop laughing.

I feel like I am banging my head against a concrete wall..............................

[Trmnatr]

jesus butch, there are two lines of pistons..................2 two 2. Just like every other line of pistons. Crap man. There are power pak pistons, and pro series pistons. Two, different alloys. One is 2618, and the other is 4032. I am just rolling on the floor. I tried to explain that to you for an entire page over there. Do you get it now? I can't stop laughing.

I feel like i am banging my head against a concrete wall..............................

jake,

read the post on yellow bullet

powerpak pistons are 4032 as it says on mahle.com with a few select ones being 2618

then they have the second line (not telling you there is not a second line) which is the pro series, the pro series are 2618 except the 2 barrel ones which are 4032

on mahle.com its says that most of their pistons are 4032, im not telling you that yours are this or that like carl said i am

read what i said

[lun40119]

Are you kidding me.........that is what I have been trying to tell you.........now you are telling me what I have been trying to tell you. I love learning. You are killing me Butch. Effin killing me.

I am officially renaming this thread, fight like little girls thread :D :D :D

LETS GET IT ON!!!!!!!!

[Dart Vader]

Sweet mother of completely off topic....

Maybe I should just start a "Verbally kick the crap out of each other" forum for you guys...

[lun40119]

No I like the fight like little girls forum.........

[Dart Vader]

No I like the fight like little girls forum.........
Ok... but I want to see more hair pulling and slapping if I'm gonna name it that.

[lun40119]

Ok... but I want to see more hair pulling and slapping if I'm gonna name it that.

I did hear from Kevin that you were kind of funny like that................

[Trmnatr]

Sweet mother of completely off topic....

Maybe I should just start a "Verbally kick the crap out of each other" forum for you guys...

Just title it posting for Butch, Jake, Carl and Bill and readers will get a good show of fighting

We will be fighting that you dont spell Dart right lol

[Trmnatr]

I did hear from Kevin that you were kind of funny like that................

Im keeping my eye on him :D

[Dart Vader]

Watch your mouth Jake... I won't hesitate to pull your hair.

[kevin@dart]

Wow, this thread went somewhere different.

[lun40119]

Should rename it Dart Forum Members Declare War on Each Other :D

[want-a-be]

Sweet mother of completely off topic....

Maybe I should just start a "Verbally kick the crap out of each other" forum for you guys...

LOL....I thought it was totally on topic...doesn't this threads name imply that this is the War Room?

Don

Could create a PW protected war room for such venting for senior members...lol Could keep such things behind closed doors if you'd prefer. Grant access upon request and some prerequisites.:p

[want-a-be]

good thing I don't have any hair left then...

Don

[lun40119]

He isn't used to such hostilities.......growing up with the Brady's and all.

[Trmnatr]

He isn't used to such hostilities.......growing up with the Brady's and all.

lol

[lun40119]

Ok... but I want to see more hair pulling and slapping if I'm gonna name it that.

Originally Posted by lun40119
I did hear from Kevin that you were kind of funny like that................

Im keeping my eye on him :D

I knew there was something going on there.................:eek::eek::eek: