Dart Ford Project

[Dart Vader]

We’re beginning a special project at Dart, and we’d like your input!
We’ve decided it’s high time we produced a monstrously powerful cylinder head for all the small block Ford racers out there. We are just getting started with initial brainstorming sessions for the project and we want to make the best cylinder head out there.
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That being the case, we’d like to know what YOU want in the perfect SBF competition racing head. We’re gathering ideas and insight from our customers to make a cylinder head that will be truly spectacular. Are there features you’d like to see? Weaknesses in current heads you’d like addressed? Design changes to make them easier to use?
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Share any and all of your ideas with us, we want to hear from you!


If you'd prefer not to post your ideas in this thread, go ahead and e-mail them to us at:
contact@dartheads.com

Be sure to include "Dart Ford Project" in your subject line!

[want-a-be]

Well,...I'm not a big ford guy. But I'll take a wack at this one. I've built a few ford engines using your stuff, "heads mainly", and the best thing I like about them are the symmetrical runners on but the intake and the exhaust. After building with a few your heads it's made me consider to do some kind of Ford build for myself.

Weakest would have to be the 4 head bolts around each cylinder. But thats a call you guys had nothing to do with, and addmittedly enough, probably is more dependent on things like compression, HP bring ran, and maybe RPM. Basicly the use of the engine and how hard it's going to be stressed.

Common problems with them,...I haven't built enough Fords to have identified any common problems that jump out at me. Other then the, "older", stock stuff, "head wise", was too small, "imo", to make real good HP with. After market has brought ford up in the compitition speed wise. Thing is about most of what I've built Ford wise is,...none of them has ever came back, to date that is,...lol Biggest complaint I've ever had was that "1" guys' carb ran like crap on his circle track car. I told him when he picked his engine up that it wouldn't work. He tried everything he could to get it to work and started to sour towards my engine. Then he asked to borrow a friends carb. Woke the car up in a huge way...that next Monday he came and appologized for anything he had said. Was water under the bridge as far as I was concerned. That build was with stock heads that I had ported.

Inprovements? Raise the ports some on both sides, ex and in, wouldn't hurt at all. If you could do so and still use the stock type intake would probably be a selling point. Roll the valves a bit and still use stock rocker gear. Even though it's almost the same price to run the cheaper, "in cost", shaft rockers then the stud mounted ones. It would still be a good selling point for a lot of ford guys. When your heads started out HPing the stock blocks you ought to be able to sell more blocks,...jmo though.

Before I get slammed on what I have or haven't said here,...remember the disclaimer statement when I said I haven't built many Fords, well as opposed to Chevys that is.

Don

[want-a-be]

While we are on the wish list side of things,...I'd like to see some smaller chambers also.

Don

[FlashBack]

I' don't have alot of technical input for you but the raised port idea that was posted sounds good...interchangeability with parts already on the market would be good as well.

[dwedge]

If you raised the intake runners .300" then Edelbrock intakes would fit without machining. Offer a .250" phenolic intake gasket/heat block for people that use intakes that are machined correctly.

[SCHUCKZ]

Hi, this is Chuck Scott the Tech Writer for RPM Magazine. I am excited to see Dart building a SBF race head. Dart makes the best Chevy heads out there and the best blocks but us Ford guys have been forced to use other brands on our Dart blocks. In my opinion everybody has missed the perfect Ford cylinder head by some margin.

If you take a look at what Ford guys have been using this will be a great indicator of where to go with your new design.

What are we using?

Yates SC1 and D3 castings are one choice. There is no need to go this route because all the other manufacturers already have. Brodix, Blue Thunder and Edelbrock all have their similar versions. Even though the shallow valve angle canted valve head makes huge power, they can be finicky to tune and may not be permitted in some classes or are penalized with weight.

The Trick Flow Highports are a Ford favorite with the best performance from a stock 20 degree valve angle and some porters getting around 370cfm at .800". Still there is a huge gap between the Highport with its tune friendly chamber and the finicky Yates style boasting 440cfm+.

You have the 15 degree Edelbrock Victor which is a great all around head that is a compromise of huge flow numbers and a manageable valve angle. I have seen huge performances with these heads rivaling the canted valve heads. Terry Elem has been 4.71 with his Victor headed twin 88mm radial car.

Then there are the 10 degree inline offerings from CFE and World Products. These guys made a strong attempt to come up with a different Ford head but they fall into the same finicky tuning window as the canted valve heads without quite reaching their performance level.

Then lets take a look at what the SBC guys are using. They don't need so many different styles of heads. They have the NASCAR SB2 canted stuff, the stock valve angle 23 degree stuff and the 18 degree killers. They have 18 degree heads with flow numbers over 400cfm that are very nitrous friendly and make big power.

If I were betting my life on building the most successful Ford Cylinder head it would be an inline head that could use shaft rockers from an already existing head like the Victor or even your 20 degree heads,

A very tall casting for extreme raised port locations,

between 15 and 18 degree valve angle,

a large combustion chamber that can be milled and retain a good design,

a thick strong casting to withstand high boost and heavy nitrous,

make them available as cast or with a CNC program at a reasonable cost,

give them a 2.125 intake valve with room for larger if the customer wants.

Don't be afraid of port volume. The racers using this head will likely have 440-470ci Windsors.

Shoot for flow numbers of 420cfm at .800" with more at higher lift.

Don't worry about extra head bolts.

Use a Yates intake and header bolt pattern.

Make sure the spark plug location is easy to get to.

Make a matching dominator flange intake that is very tall, don't worry about it fitting under hoods because the guys that will use this stuff won't care, it should be considerably taller than the Edelbrock 2828 to straighten and equalize the runners for plate systems.


If I can be of any help, feel free to contact me. I would love to test the prototype in RPM Magazine and even use them on our new project car with our 454ci Dart shortblock.

(540)915-4699

[Dart Vader]

Hi, this is Chuck Scott the Tech Writer for RPM Magazine. I am excited to see Dart building a SBF race head. Dart makes the best Chevy heads out there and the best blocks but us Ford guys have been forced to use other brands on our Dart blocks. In my opinion everybody has missed the perfect Ford cylinder head by some margin.

Nice post! Thanks for the input!

[Sam Vincent]

Nice post! Thanks for the input!

I tried post the other day but couldnt. I sent in a pretty detailed e-mail about this subject. my e-mail is;

thanks, Sam Vincent

I think something like Little Chief/SBX head for a ford. Needs to be real rigid/stiff, not near as heavy as the new Edelbrock SC 1 heads (way heavy), may as tall or a tad less. A nice large sturdy rocker stand pad, maybe do an extra rocker stand bolt toward intake face a little between rockers (for that cylinder) in a triangulate pattern,. I believe the 10 headbolt works fine most the time with the MLS style gaskets and real good fastener. A superior coolant flow. Maybe offer two valve angles, one for N/A or forced induction (9-12*), and then a more nitrous friendly version(11-14*).

liek I said check out my e-mail

[Streamlinerinc]

I have the Brodix BF202 and have had pretty good luck with 2300 HP twin turbo 415" SBF. I would Like to See a Head that flows 420+ 300 and have extra Head Bolts the head I have now is 11 degree and works well. I am with sam the Little chief design is very good also we just need something comparible in the SBF OH Yeah please make the Head Compatible with readily available shaft rocker arms.

Thanks John Sheffield

[DARTZZILLA]

I AGREE W/DON ,CHUCK, & SAM PRETTY MUCH!
BUT I BELIEVE THE 6 BOLTS PER CYLINDER IS DEFINATELY A GOOD IDEA! I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A THICKER DECK CASTING, W/THE RAISED PORTS & MATCHING INTAKE, AND A MIRROR PORT DESIGN LIKE THE SB2's, OR MABEY A LEFT & RIGHT SPECIFIC HEAD W/ THE PORTS ANGELED BACK FOR DRAG RACING, A CANTED VALVE SEMI-HEMI STYLE TWIN PLUG OPTION, AND MAKE YOUR OWN SS SHAFT ROCKER SYSTEM SPECIFICALLY FOR THESE HEADS!
AFTER ALL YOU ARE D.A.R.T. ["DOMINANT", "AGRESSIVE",
"RACING", "TECHNOLLOGY".] I MEAN YOU ARE ALREADY WAY AHEAD OF THE CURVE BY JUST KIKING IT W/YOUR PEOPLE!

[DARTZZILLA]

AS A MATTER OF FACT I THINK IT MIGHT BE A GOOD IDEA JUST TO MAKE A DART SUPER ENGINE W/THE BEST OF EVERYTHING 1"SUPER RAISED SEMETRICAL or SPREADPORT RUNNERS,2,3,OR 4VALVE OPTION, 1"THICK DECKS, SEMI HEMI DUAL SPARK PLUG'S W/DUAL OVER HEAD CAMS, SS DART SHAFT ROCKER SYSTEM, A RACE SERIES BLOCK W/ 4 CROSS BOLT MAINS,[4 IN THE BOTTOM & 4 IN THE SIDE, W/DART BILLIT OILPANS, AND OR A RAISED CAM, , RAISED PORT DART INTAKES SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS ENGINE, DESIGN A UNIVERSAL FRONT CLIP CRADEL FOR THIS ENGINE SO IT CAN FIT A CHEVY OR FORD OR DODGE! MAKE THEM IN 2 SIZES 500ci small block and A 600ci-1000ci bb!
THIS IS DART & DART IS DOMINANT BECAUSE THEY ARE THE BEST
IF YOUN DONT SOMEBODYS GOING TOO
EVENTUALLY

[want-a-be]

schuckz has a lot to ask for, and he hits alot of very good points for the upper end guys. The head I'd like to see might even be able to fit both what he wants and what I am trying to target. Bad thing about upper end heads are, imo of course. there are guys who aren't wanting to hit over 7500RPMs but would still like to have all those features. Maybe something with the same cross sectional area (volume) as the 200cc heads but with taller runners. ( which of course adds to the runner volume, for those who might not know this that is) But make them beefy enough to reach out and capture those larger flow numbers.

Just rambling aimlessly,....sorry still recovering from a 4 day camping trip in bad weather. Almost like a hang over....

Don

[Dart Vader]

I tried post the other day but couldnt. I sent in a pretty detailed e-mail about this subject. my e-mail is;

thanks, Sam Vincent

I think something like Little Chief/SBX head for a ford. Needs to be real rigid/stiff, not near as heavy as the new Edelbrock SC 1 heads (way heavy), may as tall or a tad less. A nice large sturdy rocker stand pad, maybe do an extra rocker stand bolt toward intake face a little between rockers (for that cylinder) in a triangulate pattern,. I believe the 10 headbolt works fine most the time with the MLS style gaskets and real good fastener. A superior coolant flow. Maybe offer two valve angles, one for N/A or forced induction (9-12*), and then a more nitrous friendly version(11-14*).
liek I said check out my e-mail

Did get your e-mail, it's been added to the file for review.
Thanks to everyone for the input so far.

[min301]

I'll lend my thoughts...


Hello, min301-moderator at Hot Rod magazines forum, and
member at bangshift.com, auto tech, and engine builder.

Let me start out with, the SBF heads on the market now are the best that's ever been available to the public, so unless something is really goos about em, they'll
get muddled in the fray.
A few things pop to mind, such as an exhaust port that can flow comparably
to the better heads, which will likely require raising the port(which causes header fitment headaches), maybe rolling the valve angle between 10 and 15 degrees.

Also, TFS came up w/ the twisted wedge, which is a good head, but is limited
in flow, especially on the exhaust. The classic Cleveland heads flow great at
the outer stretches of rpm on the intake, but had a weak exhaust port.

Yates heads are awesome, but very expensive-point is-the budget end is pretty well covered, I would concentrate on the mid-upper level stuff here.

[want-a-be]

I'd like to see the upper level stuff blended into the lower level heads. I guess thats the point I have been trying to make. Surley the header deal can be gotten around with the higher exhaust ports. Just engineer around the problem. For the most part you're limited by your imagination when you're engineering a change.

Don

[Falcon67]

A SBF head is quite a project. You start moving stuff around and pretty soon intakes and headers don't fit so well. There is also a water routing issue between the typical W type application and a C application. To broaden the potential market, you'd want to make it convertible for those applications. A couple of holes and some plugs does that.

I run a lot of 351C stuff and have run a bit of 302 in the past. A good tune up on a 351C head reduces a 4V port down to the 220cc range where it still has decent low end. The canted valves ease cylinder filling but they still only sit - typically - on a 4" bore. That all works better on a 4.125 or so. I imagine it would also make the head wider - like a 351C. There are plenty of intakes that can handle an intake port in the 190~230 cc range so that should not be a problem. The intake could stand to be raised a bit to help the short turn. The 2V 351C and not as much the 4V has a very sharp turn to the valve because the port lays pretty flat. Putting something like a Parker port tongue in a 4V port makes a big improvement on that.

Big valves are good. You get much over 1.9 intake in any of the "inline" head applications and you will likely have piston interference depending on valve lift.

We're pretty stuck with the 4 bolts/cylinder. So a thick deck is required to try and keep the head flat with a big blower or big spray.

The exhaust ports are a compromise, a 2V 351C exhaust flows better than a 4V port even when ported. The stock heads are designed with the idea that most of the older applications have those big shock towers in the way, so with the port pointed out, the header pipes have to make a pretty serious turn right off the port. Raising and widening makes it more of a problem in a shock tower car. The square shape of a 351C head points the port more down than out which helps. But the pipe still has to make a decent turn. In the later model applications, there is usually more room. SBF headers are already a PITA and making a wider port doesn't help that - but it's what is needed. It'd be interesting to see what a taller standard width port with a special header would do to exhaust flow.

Trick Flow introduced a nice 351C head at SEMA 2008 that is worth a look for comparison.

- couple of port volumes, 180~190 and 220~230, raised intake floor, lean the valve back toward the short side
- canted valves, maybe requiring partnering with a piston producer. 1.9 lower end, 2.10 standard, 2.2+ maybe top end / 1.6 or 1.7 exhaust
- thick deck
- pedestals for either bolt down (late model/GT40 type) or regular studs + guide plates
- a bit wider/ taller exhaust with less of a "hump" in the exit - maybe limited by external interference - sort of a modified "351C" exit.
- provision for water at the front face of the head, for possible applications requiring water to be pulled out the front.
- Small engine chamber size 58 or 60cc with deck to reduce to 55ish, larger 351~383 engine chamber 64~68 cc middle, 74~76 big bore/stroker.

Sounds like a fun project, good luck with it.

[Sam Vincent]

Did get your e-mail, it's been added to the file for review.
Thanks to everyone for the input so far.

Thanks, one thing that would probably makeit better too , but require custom camshaft and possible manifold, is reverse the int. & exh. valve layout. that would be a first in the SBF race head and straighten up the port alignment a bunch.

[Smokey427]

Hi, This is Robbie Capps. To me you guys should build a cylinder head that fits the market and evryones wallet. I am an engine builder and machinist and have built many fords and chevys. I have used the D3 heads and blue thinder cylinder heads, and many others that you guys have mentioned. They are all great but the interchangebility and cost two build and astronomical. You have problems like headers having to be custom made and intake manifolds were you have slim choices. If it were me I would target The little guy. What I meen by that is this. The big inch stroker is what evryone is tryin to build these days and by far the ford versions are very potent. You guys should consider the guy that wants to build one and put it in his 70 boss or 79-93 fox body. Or even a fairmont. We need something with availible headers that fit and manifolds we can buy off the shelf. And have flow numbers that can feed the ever demands of the big inches. You guys may know this but Air Flow Research just produced an chevy small block cylinder head that is exactly what I have been speaking about. It uses stock angles and intake fittment. Even headers are a easy thing to get. Cause the heads retain the stock measurments. But heres the thing, The head they have are 350cfm + and have room for porting. That means that you can build big inches and spray nitrous and supercharge or turbo this thing to death. And still make big power and not have to spend 2000.00 on headers or 1500 on custom intake manifolds. And most of all no major car modifications just to fit in in there. And you dont have to drop 4500.00 just on d3 castings and then spend an extra 2500 on some shaft rockers. Just make them with conventional rocker arm stud pads that are super strong and make it were you can put an 2.125 to 2.05 intake valve and a1.60 to 1.625 exhaust valve. Give us two or three choices. Cause if you target the street machine and the hardcore racer and make sure he dosnet have to spend 60,000.00 on an engine he will be happy. Make it with a super efficient chamber and you guys already know that. Make it with super thick decks so for big inch to small inch motors can be built. or just sell it with 76 cc or 60cc. and both ways can be milled to spec. Definately do an twisted wedge stile chamber to get the intake valve in the center of the cylinder and be sure to lay the chambers out with plenty of unshrouded area. Need no restrictions. Keep the stock bolt pattern and quantity. Super efficient coolant compasity. Not sure on valve angles cause im not sure on my limitations with retaining stock demensions. You guys should know that already. Probably 20 degrees is far as you can go with those limitations. Same goes with raising the floors of intake and exaust. Just not sure. But by all meens do it if you can. See this way pistons, headers, intakes and shaft rockers and stud rockers are off the shelf parts and will fit in any application or should I say most. It can be done and by all Meens I would love to see you guys do it. Plus if you get Richard Maskin and Billy Glidden and his Dad Bob Gliddens advice as prominant engine builders you will be on top of the game and makin sales. And in todays economy and tryin to survive, makin sales is what keeps the doors open. Then turn around and build the ultimate sbf racing head. Then you can spare no exspense with crazy valve angle and port locations. Well thanks for hearing me out and hope I dont get beat up to bad for my imput.

[SCHUCKZ]

Vader,
Do you guys know which route you are going with this project? Please keep me informed when you start the design and development process. I would like to document the process in a article series.

Chuck Scott
(540)915-4699

[Dart Vader]

Vader,
Do you guys know which route you are going with this project? Please keep me informed when you start the design and development process. I would like to document the process in a article series.

Chuck Scott
(540)915-4699
It's still very, very early in the concepting phase.
I'll let you know as soon as I know more.

[SCHUCKZ]

Thanks. You going to PRI?

[Dart Vader]

Shuchkz: I won't be at PRI this year myself, but others will be. If you're gonna be there, stop in!

[Awesome Bill]

Won't be there either, going to SANDLES for a killer week with the woman I love! (my wife!) 50 years old and never been on vacation without kids. This is our first and the PRI lost really bad in her decision on when WE WERE GOING. I did not even try to get out of it, she is too good to me about letting me have what I want and need most times. Shes a cool girl!

[want-a-be]

Gotta keep those Bill....not many of them out there. I've got the same kind of woman. Never on me about being home all the time. I never have to call to get "permission" to do something. I know guys who have to call just to come home late from work??!?!?!?!

Don

[Awesome Bill]

Now dosent that just make life a whole lot easier. Before I got married, my Grandfather, whom I loved dearly, told me this. If you treat your wife like a Queen, no one else will be able to and she will never treat you like a dog even when she could! So I have always made her first and she has always stood beside me and let me do pretty much what ever I needed to do, within reason of course. One thing I done early on was to bring her into our buisness to manage the resourses and that has made the difference. Thanks Don

[Dart Vader]

We've compiled a nice list of feedback and ideas for this head and are moving into a development phase on it... we're working with some very experienced builders to ensure that the final piece is exactly what racers need.

We're going to take our time on them, we want to create innovations, not just copy the heads that are good currently, so expect to see them some time in 2011.

Thanks to everyone who contributed!

[SCHUCKZ]

Any hints on what direction you guys are taking with it? Valve angle?

[Dart Vader]

Any hints on what direction you guys are taking with it? Valve angle?
I can't really reveal too much at this point, as some things are likely to change as we test and develop the concept.

Let's just say it will be unexpected...

Maybe a bit later I'll be able to reveal some more.

[Awesome Bill]

I can't really reveal too much at this point, as some things are likely to change as we test and develop the concept.

Let's just say it will be unexpected...

Maybe a bit later I'll be able to reveal some more.

I hope it has symetrical in it with an as cast manifold be included so we don't need a sheet metal, that would be killer.

[WeDyno]

I don't know if "Monstrously Powerful Cylinder Head" means drag race only or will it be small enough for alcohol circle track? There are already some very good recommendations but a common problem I've had with Ford heads is the valve cover rails are to low and the oil drain back is very poor, especially for any type of endurance racing.

[constrictor]

So anything new on this project? Sure would like to see a new head/intake package available for SBF's!

[Dart Vader]

Nothing new at this point, I'm afraid.