dart iron 2 rocker setup help plz

[fastfreddynz]

Hello!
Great site you have here!

i have just got my hands on a 327 race motor for my sprint boat,

ive been told it has dart iron 2 heads on it
running trw slugs 11-1 comp.
a wild cam bla bla, this is set up for river racing in b class.

problem is! i removered the rocker covers and found two rockers that had had a hiding, they are craine 1.5 ratio black ali 7/16 stud type
then looking at them and the push rods they seem to be a mix, odd rods,some blue rocker arms eg...

so im off to buy some s/s rpm roller rockers,ive been reading a bit in rocker geomertry,and handy tips on this will help before i blow money on stuff that wont work.

any ideas here be great please! maybe i should shoot home and get some numbers off the heads? all i know about them is they have s/s vavles.heavy springs and about 2.5 k spent on bench flowing and porting

[lun40119]

If you are asking what stainless rocker arm to get for you SBC head. Look at Comp. Really a nice rocker arm and not really that expensive.

[fastfreddynz]

thx for that.
found some numbers on heads inside/undwer covers.

1-037
HN
9
322
W

buggered if i know what they stand for lol.

ive been hunting for good/well priced rockers,only to find rpm ss roller rockers the best price of $450 including.nz.

more about push rod /rocker geomerty is what i need to know,

next problem is,ive fitted my inlet to motor only to reliss i dont know if its running solid flat lifter or hyro flat lifter,cant seem to be able to push the push rod down at all so im gessing solid,wich tells me i need to find ot the lash settings.this will be hard because the guy that sold motor to me wont help at all,takin the money and ran! dam it!:confused:

[want-a-be]

Having an adjustable pushrod will greatly help you figure out your proper rocker geometry.

On your lash...I'd start with about .025"...

Are you going to stay with the 1.5 rocker ratio? If not then you'll want to make sure that you have the piston to valve clearance to go more.

Do some research on this site about rocker geometry. It has been discussed more then a few times. If memory serves me correctly both me and Jake have been on a few of them. Theres a lot of talent lurking about on this forum. Some opinions seem to differ,...but usually you can get some solid advice.

Don

[fastfreddynz]

thx for the info,ill do a search.

yes im sticking to 1.5 ratio rockers.i ordered them this arvo.set of 1.5,7/16 s/s roller rockers.
i have a few sets of push rods there,so ill start with them to setting up geomertry,and go from there before ordering a nother new set,

does pushrod lenth change ratio? and in vavle travel?

[fastfreddynz]

gess i should stat what i have and what its intenderd to do.

327 4 bolt
forged twr pistons .30 over, 11/1 comp
cam 3000-6000
lift in;.365 lift ex;.366
valve lift @ 1.5 ratio in;.534 ex;549
duration @ .o5o in;252 ex 261

stock crank /fluid damper
shot penned rods arp bolts
stud kitted
high vol oil pump and and large capacaity/ windage tray sump.
ss valves, flat tappets
all balanced
done 6.5 hrs mostly racing ant 5800 rpm.

ok so its in a jetboat pull 5000 rpm heavy loading for long runs.

[want-a-be]

Push rod length does not change rocker ratio or the valve lift.

Don

[fastfreddynz]

ok,so i have me ss roller rocker.
i have a set of new 5/16 howards push rods 7.850 plus the ones in it,but no numbers on them,a lil shorter on my tape.?
once ive set my geomertry(read)
and i got to set lash
do i set them cool?with oil?do i have more lash for ex valves?
one book says to go 0.003-0.005 tighter.

im a bit ruff on the old setting up side of things,so im trying to find as much out as i can before starting job,

this motor will need to run for a long time,i dont need 5 more hp if its going to wear out faster or get valves to hot,
this is my first solid lifter motor.

thx again!
nathan.

[Awesome Bill]

Start with .020/.020" intake and exhaust, the cam your using will be solid for sure if your springs are really large and have over 125lbs of seat pressure. Always use oil. Make sure you take some black magic marker, color the tip of the valve, install the rocker and run a pattern. The pattern should be no wider than .020" and dead center if possible. It does not really matter if it dead center but the narrower the pattern the more power you will make. Start with this.

[lun40119]

.020 Bill, cmon Bill, that will be hard to get with a stud deal. Ive got more than that with the T&D's.

[fastfreddynz]

thankyou both for the help!!!

i started with the howard 7.850 rods, then to a stock set 7.800 both to long,so i got hold of a ajustable one, 7.750 seams to be the best, so ill go order a set tomora,

thx!
nathan

[Awesome Bill]

he could run as tight as .010".010" and not have a bit of problem. A good starting point s .020/.020"cold and it will be .022-.024 hot. He is most likely under cammed anyway. TL cam s are pretty hot right now and if he has the time to dyno this most likely the lash I gave him will produce more power. We always start on the tight side with dyno testing and go as much as .020 loose. Very seldom do we find more power loose unless the cam is waaaaaay to big!

[lun40119]

Oh, my bad, I though that we were talking about the rocker arm pattern, not the lash. I thought you meant under .020 for the pattern on the valve. sorry bout that.

[want-a-be]

spoke out of turn with out reading what was said on the first page.

Don

[lun40119]

Start with .020/.020" intake and exhaust, the cam your using will be solid for sure if your springs are really large and have over 125lbs of seat pressure. Always use oil. Make sure you take some black magic marker, color the tip of the valve, install the rocker and run a pattern. The pattern should be no wider than .020" and dead center if possible. It does not really matter if it dead center but the narrower the pattern the more power you will make. Start with this.

Actually I did read it correctly............

[lun40119]

Mine is wider than that with the shaft stuff......................

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w26/bells67/P2241384jpgsmall.jpg

[fastfreddynz]

thx guys.
so how does one get such a thin line? i get that a longer rod will bring the line to low,and a shorter rod to high on the valve stem,but dont have any idea of why or how to get a thin lie acoss it?
nathan

[lun40119]

Proper rocker arm geometry creates the thin line......there are guys that can put it into words better than I can, but I was always taught, it is the trunnion height. When you set up shafts, you set the trunion height, and then measure the pushrod. Pushrod length is an outcome of proper stand height.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w26/bells67/P2241378jpgsmall.jpg

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w26/bells67/P2241373jpgsmall.jpg

I remember when talking to Bill, or Don, I didn't think that the shafts could really be that much better. They were right, there is no comparison. Money well spent, will use shafts, in my wifey's motor too.

[Awesome Bill]

Getting back to geometry, the pattern should be like the one pictured on Jake's valve for ideal conditions. Getting proper geometry also gets you the most valve lift. If its wide, your wrong, if its narrow and thin but not in the center, the trunion seat in the shaft system is to far forward or if it is thin and to the outside of the valve its is got the rocker center to far down or towards the valve. Also, height of valves will move this around. A plus .200" valve in a conventional head will cause the pattern to be on the exhaust side of the valve. Either way, dead center just means the rocker company and the correct valve length is used. We have found some engines to be .200" short and way down on power. When corrected the engine will just free right up with power.

[lun40119]

Im not sure who you are talking to, but my rocker geometry is just fine. I know, I could never make a car run as fast as you can. Of course I can't. You are Bill Cannon. In a car that goes down the track properly your numbers jive. But in the real world with a street car with a true street suspension it is more difficult. I am going to put some adjustable shocks on it to control some of the crap that goes on when I try to launch.

I never made 700 Hp, nowhere near it. My stuff was way wrong. I listened to the wrong people, put a head on that was way too small, which in turn sent the air speeds through the roof, and then I used a cam that was way to long, and way too lazy with nowhere near the lift that my combo needed. Had to use a small arm because of the length of the cam.

Remember Bill, you don't have to be the answer man for everything. If you were, you would be breaking dominating prostock, or winning every class at drag week. But instead I don't really hear much about your engines on a big scale. Well other than what YOU say.

[Awesome Bill]

spoke out of turn with out reading what was said on the first page.

Don

done it myself, I will disregard all other statements! did not want to pick a keyboard fight.

[Awesome Bill]

thx guys.
so how does one get such a thin line? i get that a longer rod will bring the line to low,and a shorter rod to high on the valve stem,but dont have any idea of why or how to get a thin lie acoss it?
nathan

check the next to last post. I never use a shorter than 7.900 push rod with and flat tappet cam and aftermarket head. I think your way out of the ball park. The pattern has to come clean and thin like Jake's picture or your not getting the proper lift. Do it again and slow down. I use the actual valve spring with push rods we have until its perfect. Sometimes not all push rods are the same. Half are .025 " to .050" longer with different companies valves and actual tip heights.

[Awesome Bill]

Push rod length does not change rocker ratio or the valve lift.

Don

Don, think about this, if your running to short of a pushrod and your geometry is off and your rocker tip is riding the short side of the radius and never reaches the 9:00 mark but does not get the extension over to 8:00, you will kill a ton of lift. Say piston to valve is around .060" I come along and say wow, your push rods are .200" short and install them. Once over center, the valve lift is picked up by the shorter side of the now max lift radius. This sometimes will pick up .100" with proper geometry, just depends how far it was on the short side of the radius.

Proper geometry is the basic fundamental procedure that must be set with the valve train at the time you set it up. Change anything and it changes. Rocker arms are not even close and I have seen .100" difference in just brands. If we make any change with rockers, we recheck the pattern.

The final assembly with all parts being used is check on both heads. Sometimes we add or take away lash caps for changing rocker arms up also. This gives us about .050" and also gives us a cushion for rocker tip failure. Had a ton of that with the T&D stuff and had to move over to Jesel. I think they are getting a handle on it. If the rocker makes it threw break in, their perfect, but we would get 3-10 tip failures for a while there and did not get any help when it warrantied pulling the heads back off to tip the valves. We set up with lash caps when using T&D until we see no more failures

Yes I use good assembly lube and moved to Renegade 5-20 oil with 3000 ppm of zinc and we still had the problem. Not 1 failure with Jesel, that was the tattle tale of knowing what was going on. I was not the only engine builder that went threw this.

Either way, push rod length will change duration and lift more than most people even realize.

[Awesome Bill]

.020 Bill, cmon Bill, that will be hard to get with a stud deal. Ive got more than that with the T&D's.

The proper valve train geometry will yield even tighter patterns when near perfect conditions are used. A lot of wider patterns happen also from the push and pull on standard stud rockers. Any type of drag or push and pull will change the pattern. A stud girdle was not to stop side to side flexing, that is stopped with just the push and pull of the cam with the basic valve angles to keep it going the way it is supposed to, it is used to stop the rocker studs from moving back and forth from friction, bad rockers, rocker wheels that bind and any other thing that can bite you in the __ss when your engine decides to just quit because it says so.

I never understand why shaft rockers are not used. When you take into consideration the cost of an engine and the valve train being the weakest link, even the cheaper shaft rockers are a bargin. I think you can buy them for under $300. That is just as cheap as the Chinese rockers. Most likely are Chinese shaft rockers.

This is why when we talk about people with problems and their engines are down on power and everyone wants to know what the head flows. Let me tell you a little about head flow, it is not the gauge for anything! Volume, valve size, intake manifold and carb is the key with proper application.

It is impossible for the do-it your selfer to take this all in. Even someone like our members here on the board who try to help and in most cases just confuse more. Not all the time but some times.

I don't get paid for this and do it because I hate to see hard earned money or even easy earned money get wasted. If you give a customer the best set of flowing heads anyone can produce and he or she does not understand everything else that goes with it, then its all for nothing and he or she will be __ssed off and talk __it about it. And then someone else reads it and another and another __it storm is out there because he or she does not understand nor are they professional enough to ask.

So lets just port their heads more and change the cam, that always fixes everything. If most people just got 400 real HP from their engines with a proper combination from front to back in a 3500 lb car, everyone would be running 11.50 @ 133+mph