Water leak help?

[corcon]

I have a friend with an aluminum dart rocket block and aluminum heads.He has water problems with leaks going into the cylinders as well as coming out the stud.The sleeves are up .003 from the deck surface.The sleeves are oringed and the heads have reciever grooves as per flatout gaskets specs.We have used flatout,sce coated and sce titan gaskets with no results.Any help would be great.He doesn't want to have to deck the block or cut the heads.

[want-a-be]

What kind of sealer are you using on the studs. Are the head bolt holes blind or into the water? Are you using the correct studs for an aluminum block? Are you using some kind of gasket sinch...like copper coat or what ever on the head and deck surface? How much have the heads been ported? How new/old are the block/heads? Besides the head studs...where exactly is the water comming from? How many cyclinders are getting water into them?

Do you have access to torque plates? If so, you could bolt your heads to the plate put some water in the water ports. Might add a lil' food coloring or dye to the water to better find the leak. Then make some block offs for the water ports with an air chuck in 1 of them so you can pressure up the water passage. Use a regulator on the air pressure and go for about 20-30 pounds or so. Bring the pressure up slowly. If the leak is in the heads you should find it this way. You can also do the same with the block. With the plates on the deck of the block you can look into the cylinders for a problem. I have rubber gaskets made for when I do this, they seem to do a good job. The coloring in the water will allow you to find where the problem is easier.

If no plates use the coloring in the water before taking the motor down. You'll still find the problem.

If the studs aren't blind holes the old indian head shalack type sealer won't cut it with the head studs...that will usually leak.

Let me/us know what you find.


Sorry for the wordy reply. I can't tell a short story.

Thanks, Don

[Awesome Bill]

there is your problem, you can not have the sleeves up .003 or even .001, you can not get a good seal around your water ports, this means you already have a .003 air gap before the head touches the block surface. Now, we never oring the block, that is the wrong way to go, the heads try to become lifted of the deck surface when the engine is running, so we always oring the heads, .032-.034 , then we receiver groove the block .012-.014, this allows the oring to be pushed into the deck surface and it does not hold the head off the deck surface so your water ports will seal. Someone did not sink the oring far enough or did not receiver groove deep enough. I don't want to head this or that, that is your problem. I doubt your getting water into the combustion chamber because you are for sure sealing the sleeve from water getting in. Take the heads back off and check your pattern for the duplicate seal. It is possible your machinest did not over lay the oring correctly. 2 flat surfaces with any type of sealer will not leak water. this just proves you surface conditon is terrible. take her back apart and deck the block flat, you can keep the oring in the deck but make sure the groove allows the oring to go deep enough to lay the head flat after torquing. We use holamer.

[corcon]

Thanks I'll pass on the info.

[Johnny]

This is the guy with the problem. you are obviously very knowledgeable in this subject. you have nailed the problem. we have tried everything (3 different gasket types) but it is obvious the sleeves protruding was our problem all along. the motor had o-rings that were .010-.020" between the butted ends and i feel that was the reason for water getting in the cylinders (you could see the path the water eventually made into the cylinders-between the combustion pressure and the cooling system pressure). my new engine builder wanted to deck the block and sleeves to get to zero clearance across the surface and it seems he was correct with what you are saying. this is the new dilemma, the pistons are up 8 thous. now and once we deck enough to get rid of the sleeve grooves, the pistons will be up to the point that we will need a .060" head gasket to keep a comfortable distance from the head. what are your feelings on running a cometic MLS gasket with the proper resurfacing of 50 RA on the deck and the heads to seal our 13-1 motor? i can't thank you enough for pointing out the initial problem. i have been told in the past that with an aluminum block you have to have the sleeves out a bit to make up for the quicker expansion of the aluminum block to come up to the heads when the block heats up. this seems to be where we went wrong! thank you for your input.

[want-a-be]

. I doubt your getting water into the combustion chamber because you are for sure sealing the sleeve from water getting in.

Johnny said: the motor had o-rings that were .010-.020" between the butted ends and i feel that was the reason for water getting in the cylinders (you could see the path the water eventually made into the cylinders-between the combustion pressure and the cooling system pressure)

might want to look for some other possibilities.

Can the cometic gasket be ran with o-rings?
were you trying that on the leakers? What 3 gasket were you running? Cometic,copper, felpro???

Was all the cylinders getting water into them? How much water, and in how long?

I've had blocks came in that wasn't leaking that had decks with more then .010" waving at me and not leaking. Same with the heads.

I've seen heads ported so thin that they would leak through the walls of the runners. Pro stock use to be bad about this.

[Johnny]

3 different types of copper gaskets, heads were not leaking (checked twice) -you could see the pathways on the deck side of the copper gaskets everytime .

[Awesome Bill]

we have used mls gaskets over .100 with no problem on very serious nitrous engines. The gap on the oring was wrong for sure. We angle cut the wire so there is an overlap on singles and figure 8 when the cylinders are really close. You have to remember the sleeves set on aluminum so if the distrance hanging out of the block was .003, then that doubled also because the small area of steel does not compare to a .005 stretch of the block. This would make it lift the head even quicker. That is a mis conception with engine builders or people who think to much. Don't worry about the head gasket issue, Fel Pro And Cometic make a nice mls gasket that will handle anything you throw @ it. I personally do not like to use copper on aluminum because of the expansion rate. It is constantly moving around a ton and the seal that is used has to move also. I really don't know a sealer that will handle that for a long time. The mls will allow for that movement. Make sure you use stainless steel orings either butt or are overlaped. Glad it helped

[Johnny]

i'm not really sure if i understand what is going on with the sleeves. i think you are saying the sleeves are being pushed up by the block growth further into the head. if that is the case, it would explain why the external water leaks would get worse when the motor heated up. i feel alot better now with your recommendations about cometic gaskets. you are right about the o-ring gap being the only cause for leakage into the cylinders, they weren't even close to butting. i'm not going to use o-rings or receiver grooves as per the mls spec. if things go right i will have 2 flat surfaces and no water leaks! it's nice to be able to talk to someone who has experience with my combination. it's been over 2 years and many sets of expensive copper gaskets. i have a great engine builder now helping me with this and i'll let you know how the new gaskets hold up in the aluminum block. i'll post a message in a few weeks after everything is together. thanks again from canada.

[Awesome Bill]

What I said was if you left .003 or maybe taller out of the block, this already has a non flat suface that will not allow the water coolant passages to seal correctly. Then, add in all the expansion rates with all aluminum and you have a real mess. With an all aluminum engine, we see over .010" in growth @ 160° and over .014" @ 200°. So with that being said, that is a ton of movement. Push rods get real short quickly. With any aluminum block, the deck has to be first and foremost, flat, precision orings must mate perfectly, oring depth for receiver groove press fit is something that can not be lightly taken for granted. The distrance being pressed into the receiver groove has to allow the head to be able to lay down flat and seal the water ports against the surfaces of both parts. Too high, you get water coming out your head bolts and studs, even though there is no water @ the blind holes!. So the water is coming right up threw the unsealed water port around the fastneres. We use a cocktail of sealers that hold up for over 2 years with all aluminum blocks. But if its not flat, you won't seal it and they will back you off for water on the track. Good luck.

[Johnny]

machined block properly with ra finish and heads as well, made great hp on dyno and no water leaks for first time in 3 years. multi layer steel .080" gaskets. i am very very happy, thanks awesome bill!!!!! sleeves are 0 up and no o-rings, grooves or receiver grooves. 13.25-1. can't wait to go racing without worrying about leaks!!!! this is a great forum.