Gas Porting Pistons.

[want-a-be]

I thought I'd knock the dust off this old topic as I've seen some interest in it through some of the traffic to the older thread since it has 4132 views to the thread.

I did notice that Reher/Morrison has changed their site around a bit and it seems you can no longer access the hot links to their articles. Thats a bummer as they were some very good reading.

Don

[Awesome Bill]

The mere thought of taken a brand new perfect race block and by adding bushed lifter bores, we are expected to believe that this will make power. When did RM think they had better equipment or more knowledge for block prepping than the machinery DART has. If they do, why don't they come out with their own line of BBC RACE RM BLOCKS? Lifter bore bushing only corrects angles of older block stacking problems that was found in the very old GM blocks. And even then, we never found to many that actually had problems that when we bushed them the dyno seen a huge gain. This all starts from PRO STOCK bull____ we see that has trickled down into bracket racing. Granted, PRO STOCK and Comp stuff that regularily sees 10,000 rpm, you might have some gains. But a properly clearanced lifter bore with the added proper lubrication makes no more power than a bushed lifter bore or vice versa.

Again, I read an article about honing oils should be changed more frequently and that somehow makes more power? DOES IT REALLY. I don't think so. Maybe if you use an unfiltered sump system that runs right back threw with an hold hand held spring return honing machine that was the cream of the crop in the late 50's. I find a regular filter change and cleanning of the sedimint on the bottom once a year does very well. We have NO ring seal problems at All!. I find more power with proper fasteners and keeping the bore perfect than any honing oil mandatory oil change intreval!

On the subject of gas porting pistons, I have found that gas porting does nothing if the bore is properely honed! Gas porting does help a little in wearing the rings out and loading the cylinders by pushing the rings outward against the cylinder wall. I always thought we were trying to stop friction instead of increasing it. Now with larger ring values and RPM, some gas porting will make power with heavy ring stacks over certain RPM's. I usually use 1/16-1/16-3/16 Ring packs up to 8000 rpm but use a low tension oil ring. Over 8000rpm I go with the .043/.043/3mm up to 9000 and seen no problems. Over 9000rpm, bore size and power demands might cause me to add gas portingl. But what I have found in real bracket racing normal engines that anyone can buy, gas porting does nothing and if anything hurts power!. A PROPERLY HONED BLOCK WILL YEILD MORE POWER WITH A STANDARD RING PACK THAN A IMPROPERLY HONED BLOCK WITH A LIGHTWEIGHT GAS PORTED RING SET.

Duplication of the roundness of the bore after you get it from the machine shop is almost never addressed. How do you know your machine shop even plate honed it? How do you know he used the right fasteners. Recently I have gained knowledge about not all ARP fasteners are correct for most aftermarket blocks! We are making 20+more hp with just paying attention to detail with fasteners from honing to assembly along with a not very well known secret! If your smart, Check it out and you will see

Here is a very good piece of advise, after getting your block back, check the bore with a good known dial bore gauge, if it reads dead on, it is WRONG! Think about it and you will know why. 15-20 years ago we were lucky to get 5% leakage with me sending my blocks down to the local yocal machine shop. As well as stopping harmonics from the other local yocal who claimed to have and engine balancer. The more I learned the less I found out what they actually knew. Eventually we now have been able to control ever aspect of the machine work from beginning to dyno testing and the end. That is the only way you can rely on perfect work.

So when I read things that these supposedly great engine people put out, most of it is hype and only to impress the people who don't know. Do you really think they will give away anything really important? I think not. I always suspect things when people say that for example, THEY HAVE FOUND PROBLEMS WITH DART BLOCKS AND WE HAVE THE FIX. That is a ton of crap and take offense. The consistency in DART blocks is unmatched only by the full CNC billet ones. So I have found if I did not make myself think and learn and just relied on what they say people, I never find out really what to do, just copy!

[want-a-be]

So,... say we combine the gas porting with properly honed block....

When checking a block honed by someone else. I'll bolt on a torque plate to check it. How else would the bores be round when I check them.

Gas porting has been around for a good 40-50 years or so. I'd say thats why RM isn't too worried about discussing them. They aren't any trade secret.

"With the proper ring pack" the gas porting will increase hp due to more then a few things. Less drag during 3 trips, of the 4, up and down the cylinder walls would be one. Since the proper rings have less tension on the walls, and have more tension on only 1 cycle of it's 4, then the cylinder can see less wear. The compression gets behind the rings and causes the same reaction on the rings with or with out the gas porting. The gas porting just allows the process to happen faster. Which you need when you are in RPMs higher then the stock RPMs the engines were designed to run at from the big 3.

As with everything when planning a build, you have to make everything work together. Dynoing a regular set of rings, then only gas porting the the pistons and redynoing with the same stock tension rings may not net much improvement. But if you install the proper rings with that gas porting you ought to be netting a pretty good gain.

Nice post Bill. Very informative as always. You make some very good points. We just differ on some points as we all tend to. Your cylinder wall prepping is dead on.

Looking forward to you're having the time to visit us next time.

Don

[Awesome Bill]

So,... say we combine the gas porting with properly honed block....

When checking a block honed by someone else. I'll bolt on a torque plate to check it. How else would the bores be round when I check them.

Gas porting has been around for a good 40-50 years or so. I'd say thats why RM isn't too worried about discussing them. They aren't any trade secret.

"With the proper ring pack" the gas porting will increase hp due to more then a few things. Less drag during 3 trips, of the 4, up and down the cylinder walls would be one. Since the proper rings have less tension on the walls, and have more tension on only 1 cycle of it's 4, then the cylinder can see less wear. The compression gets behind the rings and causes the same reaction on the rings with or with out the gas porting. The gas porting just allows the process to happen faster. Which you need when you are in RPMs higher then the stock RPMs the engines were designed to run at from the big 3.

As with everything when planning a build, you have to make everything work together. Dynoing a regular set of rings, then only gas porting the the pistons and redynoing with the same stock tension rings may not net much improvement. But if you install the proper rings with that gas porting you ought to be netting a pretty good gain.

Nice post Bill. Very informative as always. You make some very good points. We just differ on some points as we all tend to. Your cylinder wall prepping is dead on.

Looking forward to you're having the time to visit us next time.

Don

Some people like butter and some like I can't believe its not butter. A properly honed block is key, so we agree there. What I have found on any type of parasitic drag, we loose power, so if you have more load on the rings, you will loose power. But, also you will wear rings out faster? Now if your operating above 8000 rpm with a heavy ring pack, you might be better off gas porting. I have never seen a new engine from any car builder use gas ported pistons. Why? Most of what we have comes from them and just take a look at the LS stuff with 55mm hyd cam cores. That would be considered crazy even 10 years ago. But now we have cams with a thicker cores than most cranks have on the mains? So when the big three start gas porting, I reconsider.

Don't get me wrong Don, if a customer orders gas ported pistons, it is not going to hurt it and I don't want to talk him out of it. But just to say its best is a little stretching it. Nothing wrong with it if you think it helps. I just like to put my money where I know it makes power. 1hp maybe 2 hp along with 10 other 1-2 hp upgrades adds up. So what ever you can do, do it. I am not saying for you not to, you keep right on doing what you do. Hell, Don I might be wrong? Never know.

[JDM]

very informative posts.....

[3V Performance]

Who says a set of gas ported rings have more ring tension? If done right would they not have the same or less but have enough to seal under comp? Std ring pack of today have way more ring load then needed. I see no reason not to upgrade to smaller rings with gas ports. For those interested in buying the right ones just call Keith at Total Seal and he will guid you to the correct ring needed to run gas ports.


X2 with what Bill said about cylinder finish. Question: For those not doing there own cylinder work ask the guy doing your work what the finish ( RA,RZ, RPK, and RPV ) numbers were on your cylinders. If he cant answer then he should not be doing your cylinder finish for gas ports.

[Trmnatr]

Who says a set of gas ported rings have more ring tension? If done right would they not have the same or less but have enough to seal under comp? Std ring pack of today have way more ring load then needed. I see no reason not to upgrade to smaller rings with gas ports. For those interested in buying the right ones just call Keith at Total Seal and he will guid you to the correct ring needed to run gas ports.


X2 with what Bill said about cylinder finish. Question: For those not doing there own cylinder work ask the guy doing your work what the finish ( RA,RZ, RPK, and RPV ) numbers were on your cylinders. If he cant answer then he should not be doing your cylinder finish for gas ports.

X2

This is kind of off the page for a minute but oh well

Here is my opinion, Not aimed at anyone directly:

Some bracket race engines will turn 7500rpm, some more, many want to use off the shelf pistons and 1/16" rings due to "cost" in bracket racing

I have had engines and had better luck with "lateral" gas ports even with 1/16" rings

I mean if you stop and think about it "gas pressure" is what does apply the stock ring in a running engine, do you really think the ring tension of a 5/64" or 1/16" ring would seal all the cylinder pressure on compression & exhaust stroke? In my opinion NO. In my opinion this is why the BEVEL faces up on the top ring, gas pressure pushs out against the bevel

Now IN MY OPINION it does this and gets the pressure from the side clearance of the ring being .003"-.004" which many stock pistons can and will have, I have seen some off the shelf pistons between .0015" and .002" side clearance so that limits the gas pressure to apply the ring

So based off what I see its my opinion and my belief that "lateral" gas ports provide a MORE EFFECTIVE way of applying the ring, Is there any power? I dont see it with 1/16" rings but years ago when we first started gas porting the ring it self (the top side) that did indeed stop the smoke/blowby in high gear through the lights

Any more I think thats a stupid way to gas port them (the ring itself) and I feel the piston should be gas ported

For drag race engines I have always like .031" Dykes rings, maybe im out of date lol

[want-a-be]

Who says a set of gas ported rings have more ring tension? If done right would they not have the same or less but have enough to seal under comp? Std ring pack of today have way more ring load then needed. I see no reason not to upgrade to smaller rings with gas ports. For those interested in buying the right ones just call Keith at Total Seal and he will guid you to the correct ring needed to run gas ports.


X2 with what Bill said about cylinder finish. Question: For those not doing there own cylinder work ask the guy doing your work what the finish ( RA,RZ, RPK, and RPV ) numbers were on your cylinders. If he cant answer then he should not be doing your cylinder finish for gas ports.

I agree with everything your're saying Tom. But I'm not sure if I'm the guy you're saying that gas ported rings need to be running more tension or not. But I'm not saying that at all. Quite the opposite actually. I'm saying if you run the gas ported pistons you can run less ring tension. I'm not offended at all, just wanted to make sure you knew where I was comming from. I also don't want you to point out who you were talking to if it wasn't me. I just want this to be a friendly talk.As it has been so far. I appreciate the good input from those who gave input.

Butch,

I like the lateral gas porting better myself also. I just think they have a few advantages over the vertical.

Don

[Trmnatr]

I agree with everything your're saying Tom. But I'm not sure if I'm the guy you're saying that gas ported rings need to be running more tension or not. But I'm not saying that at all. Quite the opposite actually. I'm saying if you run the gas ported pistons you can run less ring tension. I'm not offended at all, just wanted to make sure you knew where I was comming from. I also don't want you to point out who you were talking to if it wasn't me. I just want this to be a friendly talk.As it has been so far. I appreciate the good input from those who gave input.

Butch,

I like the lateral gas porting better myself also. I just think they have a few advantages over the vertical.

Don

Don PM sent

[3V Performance]

I agree with everything your're saying Tom. But I'm not sure if I'm the guy you're saying that gas ported rings need to be running more tension or not. But I'm not saying that at all. Quite the opposite actually. I'm saying if you run the gas ported pistons you can run less ring tension. I'm not offended at all, just wanted to make sure you knew where I was comming from. I also don't want you to point out who you were talking to if it wasn't me. I just want this to be a friendly talk.As it has been so far. I appreciate the good input from those who gave input.

Butch,

I like the lateral gas porting better myself also. I just think they have a few advantages over the vertical.

Don

Don was not directed at anyone but in general. I'm all for friendly talks.

[want-a-be]

Since you brought it up. I feel this ought to be said as well. It's not directed at anyone except those who may not know.

When you decide to use gas porting you've actually made a series of decisions. As with most changes in your engine build. You've also decided to run everything else that compliments the gas porting in order to appreciate as much gain in hp as possible. The proper rings, cylinder wall finish from the honing, vacuum pump, and possibly a few other things would all compliment the gas porting of the pistons.

It's like any other changes to make gains in an engine combination. Like putting a huge dominator intake and carb on a stock engine. It would kill it. Everything else has to be in place to get all the benifets.

Plan your up grades properly and you'll usually net better gains.

Don

[want-a-be]

Jake has been talking a bit about yellowbullet here lately so I thought I'd go over there for some reading. Stumbled across this thread that I thought was some interesting reading.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=196239


Don

[want-a-be]

For anyone who has been considering this tool....

https://www.goodson.com/store/templa...c5b0bc56be3fdb

and wondering about how easy it is to use. I have it and can tell you it is very easy to use. I've used mine on several sets of pistons. I can usually do a set of pistons in less then an hour. Thats from the time I break the seal on the pistons box to the time I finish filing the sharp edges created by drilling the Gas Ports. If you break a drill bit while doing this job it is no big deal to reset up and continue on. If you break a bit in the virtical Gas Ports then it can be pretty hard to remove the bit...if it even can be removed.

The lateral Gas Ports won't plug from carbon as the vertical ones tend to do from time to time.

Anyone who may have any questions about this deal can feel free to PM me with any questions. I'd be more then happy to help out. I know for a fact this tool has been sold and used around the world. It was developed for the do-it-yourselfers who like to build their own stuff.

Don

[slowpoke]

link comes up as a Goodson page BUT "file not found". Maybe just give us the PN and we can search it on Goodson?

[want-a-be]

Try these part numbers....

GPT-043, GPT-062, or GPT-078

Try this link..

http://www.goodson.com/technical_support/instructions/Gas%20Porting.pdf

or this link....

http://www.goodson.com/store/template/product_detail.php?IID=7174

I did a search on the Goodson site for GPT-043 and came up with these 2 links. Also did a search for "Gas Porting" and came up with it.

Don

[want-a-be]

I found this while I was on my quest for informative reading. I thought I would put this on in here since it relates.

Here is a piece of it....

Reducing the tension of the top ring and drilling gas ports is a win-win situation. A standard D-wall .043-inch top compression ring has a .210-inch radial thickness; you can certainly run this ring without gas ports because it has more than enough static radial tension to push the ring face firmly against the cylinder wall. But that radial tension adds to the engine’s internal friction because the ring drags against the cylinder wall every time the piston rises and falls. In fact, we really only want the top ring to seal against the cylinder wall primarily on the power stroke; on the other three strokes, it’s just along for the ride. So in this example, it’s an excellent trade-off to use low-tension top rings with a .160-inch or .170 inch radial thickness, and then use gas ports to apply cylinder pressure directly to the back of the rings for sealing only when it’s needed.

Among the misconceptions about gas ports is the mistaken belief that gas ports increase ring wear. That’s just wrong. In fact, gas ports allow you to reduce ring drag while sealing the cylinder more effectively. All piston rings rely on cylinder pressure for sealing; gas ports just apply the pressure more efficiently. We rebuild hundreds of racing engines, and typically see less piston ring wear in engines with gas ports than in engines with conventional rings. That’s because the engines with low-tension rings and gas ports have less drag on the three strokes when absolute sealing isn’t needed. The gas ports also allow the top rings to depressurize quickly; after the exhaust valve opens, cylinder pressure falls dramatically and the pressure behind the ring dissipates.

It’s said the best things in life are free. For a drag racer, there’s nothing better than free horsepower.

Go here to read the rest of the article. These guys know their stuff.

http://www.rehermorrison.com/blog/?p=198

Don

[want-a-be]

Here is some more reading about gas porting.

http://www.rehermorrison.com/blog/?p=290

and some quick reading from it....

We’ve been told that gas ports shorten ring life and wear out cylinder walls. But just as my teenage aversion to roller cams and California pistons was based on prejudice rather than facts, I have reexamined the myths and misconceptions about gas ports in sportsman engines. I’ve come to the conclusion that gas ports are essential for maximum performance in a high-horsepower engine.....

First a definition for any non-gearheads who may have inadvertently stumbled onto this column: a gas port is a hole drilled from the piston deck (a vertical gas port) or from the top ring land (a horizontal gas port) to the rear of the top ring groove. The purpose of a gas port is to apply combustion pressure directly to the top ring, forcing the ring face firmly against the cylinder wall....

Although we customarily use gas ports in our 565ci Super Series engines, we built an engine without them at the customer’s request. When we dyno tested the engine, it was off more than 50 horsepower from similar engines we’d built. The engine didn’t hold pan vacuum over 7,000 rpm, and it wouldn’t pull to peak rpm. We pulled out the pistons, drilled gas ports, and reassembled the engine. We didn’t change the rings and didn’t hone the bores, so the only difference was the gas ports. When we put the engine back on the dyno, the power was right where we expected it to be, the crankcase had good vacuum, and the engine pulled cleanly to its redline. That back-to-back test convinced me that gas ports really work - in fact, I was quite surprised by just how much difference they made!...

Why do gas ports make power? Gas ports bleed off pressure behind the rings quickly, so there is less friction to overcome....

Do gas ports wear out rings prematurely? I don’t see any discernible difference in ring wear with and without gas ports....

It may surprise you to learn that gas ports are now used routinely in NASCAR Winston Cup engines. If the rings will last for 500 miles in a Cup engine with gas ports, do you think they’ll wear out in a big-block that makes 250 quarter-mile passes between overhauls?

But you guys need to read the whole thing if you're considering gas ports.

Don

[Awesome Bill]

Who says a set of gas ported rings have more ring tension? If done right would they not have the same or less but have enough to seal under comp? Std ring pack of today have way more ring load then needed. I see no reason not to upgrade to smaller rings with gas ports. For those interested in buying the right ones just call Keith at Total Seal and he will guid you to the correct ring needed to run gas ports.


X2 with what Bill said about cylinder finish. Question: For those not doing there own cylinder work ask the guy doing your work what the finish ( RA,RZ, RPK, and RPV ) numbers were on your cylinders. If he cant answer then he should not be doing your cylinder finish for gas ports.
All that peeks and valleys was for 20 year ago Sunnen comes along and says this is the new way. We used to final bore an engine with no honing! Seen it many times, the old cast rings will seat right away.

Who really cares about valleys and peeks, we all use the Sunnen standard and they only make several really nice finish sets that I use. What really matters is total seal of the cylinder under pressure. The more pressure, the more seal, its a given. With an improperly honed block, I don't care what ring set or gas porting you do, it will not seal!

Just because you talk to Keith about finding the proper ring, does not in any way make the ring seal. Ring seal is also related to rpm. Like I said before, the more rpm, the more weight the ring feels. Once the ring can not stay stable, it will fail to seal. Have you seen the newest Nascar or pro stock stuff their using? I have and its ridiculously expensive but those boys are running 8000 to to well over 10,500 extended rpms. Under 7000rpm with normal drag engines, you don't need the thin ring sets. I find more power with the oil ring tension and design than with the top and second ring set, as well as a good quality oil that no one seems to mention.

I have talked many hours about the proper way to hone a block but never given what we have found in the last 4 years to anyone. I have also never heard anyone address the issues that cause a block to be different from when it left the machine shop and was correctly plate honed, then when assembled it has enough blow by to lift the dip stick out of its detent.

How does this happen if the machine shop done it correctly? Any one of you guys ring in here, I would like to know who can help out the last guy on the pole during assembly if he does not know this. Feel free to ring in any time.

I just had a customer get a Street 421 from a very reputable engine company and he asked me why @ around the 1000 ft mark he gets smoke in his car and when he checked under the hood, the dipstick was pushed out. He also has oil all over the top of the nice pretty valve covers.

I don't care what ring set we use, what finish is on the bore or anything else. What I strive to do is get 0-1% leakage on the dyno after a mild break in. We very seldom now use an air pump and we just leave the covers open. Even with blown alky engines making serious power, there is no smoke or oil plume! I keep getting less and less hp with air pumps once we have seal up the engine!

If you want to know if your engine has been honed and finished correctly, pull the evac, hit the trans brake and record the locomotive style smoke stream coming out of your valve covers. If your really worried about making all the HP you can, you will find a ton of it right there.

I will use gas ported pistons any time I can, but that is not going to make the power we are making much better if any with rpms under 8000. I will use 1/16 ring sets as well as .017" now being used if the application requires or my customer says he wants it. My final hone will be perfect and any ring set will seal instantly. We use nothing but Total Seal and I have talked with Bobby and Keith in detail. We all agree, if the bore won't be round when under load, the ring will fail to seal up the pressure.

Radial tension on a ring will only really work till about 6000rpm, it will then start to move around or lift. So the end gap or gas porting will help keep the ring applied. I talked to Larry Morgan years ago about a total seal ring I was have problems with, he told me if you want to loose 50 hp then run them. I soon figured out why?

We have seen end gaps over .100" when checked coming out with rings as sharp as razors and engines we find with extreme blow by have this condition. The ring did not come this way, it eat itself up, why? We have also reused ring sets that were smooth on both leading edges over many times with little to no leakage and the engine once properly honed had NO BLOW BY reusing the old rings. A properly honed block makes a ton of power once sealed up the customer never new he had!

With most engine builders just after the buck and letting his customers knows he does some pretty secret sh__, this makes his customer think he is really sharp. Like putting in bronze lifter bores in a perfect block will somehow make more power? If I am running a 20-30 year old block maybe. But DART has fixed this so we don't have to worry about that any more.

As with any assembly procedure, we do what we know works and our engines prove the hp @ the track with properly equipped additions needed to maximize the combo. It all has to work as a package.

[want-a-be]

I agree Bill,....With properly honed cylinders, correct rings and gas ported pistons a combination should be able to make more hp. Gas porting pistons has proven over the years that it does free up HP in the engine. But like anything you change in your combination,...you need to have the parts to compliment the change.

Don

[3V Performance]

All that peeks and valleys was for 20 year ago Sunnen comes along and says this is the new way. We used to final bore an engine with no honing! Seen it many times, the old cast rings will seat right away.


Bill, are you saying your not interested in peeks and valleys?? You just do your thing and presto it always works? :rolleyes:

Who really cares about valleys and peeks, we all use the Sunnen standard and they only make several really nice finish sets that I use. What really matters is total seal of the cylinder under pressure. The more pressure, the more seal, its a given. With an improperly honed block, I don't care what ring set or gas porting you do, it will not seal!

If all your using is Sunnen standards you should also ask them for the "special stones" they make for top engine builders. Trust me there not listed in there cataloge BUT are made by them.

Just because you talk to Keith about finding the proper ring, does not in any way make the ring seal. Ring seal is also related to rpm. Like I said before, the more rpm, the more weight the ring feels. Once the ring can not stay stable, it will fail to seal. Have you seen the newest Nascar or pro stock stuff their using? I have and its ridiculously expensive but those boys are running 8000 to to well over 10,500 extended rpms. Under 7000rpm with normal drag engines, you don't need the thin ring sets. I find more power with the oil ring tension and design than with the top and second ring set, as well as a good quality oil that no one seems to mention.


Again I speak from experiance as I have worked with top nascar teame ( DEI, ROUSH, TRD ) for the last 6yrs in open and restrictor plate engine devolopment and we do run thin and we do pay close attenton to cylinder finish ( peaks and valley). I also am well aware of what the top Pro Stock and Comp drag guys are using as I have lunch with Paul and Nick ( Mike Edwards guys ) quite often as well as Ian and Larry Prichet all are very close friends. Thin rings should always make more power in any engine, less fricton.

I have talked many hours about the proper way to hone a block but never given what we have found in the last 4 years to anyone. I have also never heard anyone address the issues that cause a block to be different from when it left the machine shop and was correctly plate honed, then when assembled it has enough blow by to lift the dip stick out of its detent.


If proper cylinder prep is done in the shop for the intendid use it should not have blow by issues.

How does this happen if the machine shop done it correctly? Any one of you guys ring in here, I would like to know who can help out the last guy on the pole during assembly if he does not know this. Feel free to ring in any time.


ring ring, Either the guy on the pole did not use the same hardware, gasket, torque number or lube as the machine shop or ring lands on pistons are way out of wack, wrong ring choice for cylinder finish, etc

I just had a customer get a Street 421 from a very reputable engine company and he asked me why @ around the 1000 ft mark he gets smoke in his car and when he checked under the hood, the dipstick was pushed out. He also has oil all over the top of the nice pretty valve covers.


Could this be a result of windage and excess oil on cylinders and not a problem with cylinder prep.

I don't care what ring set we use, what finish is on the bore or anything else. What I strive to do is get 0-1% leakage on the dyno after a mild break in. We very seldom now use an air pump and we just leave the covers open. Even with blown alky engines making serious power, there is no smoke or oil plume! I keep getting less and less hp with air pumps once we have seal up the engine!


Are you saying you needed the air pump to seal your rings to the cylinder and not to create a negative pressure under the piston??

If you want to know if your engine has been honed and finished correctly, pull the evac, hit the trans brake and record the locomotive style smoke stream coming out of your valve covers. If your really worried about making all the HP you can, you will find a ton of it right there.

I will use gas ported pistons any time I can, but that is not going to make the power we are making much better if any with rpms under 8000. I will use 1/16 ring sets as well as .017" now being used if the application requires or my customer says he wants it. My final hone will be perfect and any ring set will seal instantly. We use nothing but Total Seal and I have talked with Bobby and Keith in detail. We all agree, if the bore won't be round when under load, the ring will fail to seal up the pressure.

I agree about the round bore.

Radial tension on a ring will only really work till about 6000rpm, it will then start to move around or lift. So the end gap or gas porting will help keep the ring applied. I talked to Larry Morgan years ago about a total seal ring I was have problems with, he told me if you want to loose 50 hp then run them. I soon figured out why?

We have seen end gaps over .100" when checked coming out with rings as sharp as razors and engines we find with extreme blow by have this condition. The ring did not come this way, it eat itself up, why? We have also reused ring sets that were smooth on both leading edges over many times with little to no leakage and the engine once properly honed had NO BLOW BY reusing the old rings. A properly honed block makes a ton of power once sealed up the customer never new he had!


Agree but what methed do you use to determin if its right?

With most engine builders just after the buck and letting his customers knows he does some pretty secret sh__, this makes his customer think he is really sharp. Like putting in bronze lifter bores in a perfect block will somehow make more power? If I am running a 20-30 year old block maybe. But DART has fixed this so we don't have to worry about that any more.


Do you think he is making his customer think he does some secret sh__, or he is letting his customer know he is realy doing the best he can with the equiptment he has and here are the numbers to back it up. ;)

As with any assembly procedure, we do what we know works and our engines prove the hp @ the track with properly equipped additions needed to maximize the combo. It all has to work as a package...

[want-a-be]

link comes up as a Goodson page BUT "file not found". Maybe just give us the PN and we can search it on Goodson?

Should be working now...

Don