? about little m billett cap block

[Mattsv8_03]

Hello all im in the process of building a turbo 400" sbc. i have a current 357 motor with stock gm block and splayed caps.
after feeling unshure of the blocks strength i decided i would build another motor.
so i bought a 31132211 dart little m 400 block. showing in the jegs cat that only final hone is needed for a std bore.. i paid extra money for the billett caps cause i wanted a strong block. and plan on making arround 1400 hp.
so i open talked to other people having issues with dart a1 studs and the nuts exploding. and dart sent them arp studs for replacments.
but my little m dosent have studs?
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Mattsv8_03/SSPX4379.jpg
Shouldent a race block with the optional billett caps have studs for strength
then i was wondering if i go and have to buy new studs from arp. do i have to have the caps re align honed?. this race block is gona end up costing over 3000 dollars by the time all the machine work is finished. also people recomend having the deck redone for mls gaskets, and lifter bores honed or at least checked.
this is really sucking right now.:mad:

[Bad Influence Racing]

Although the norm is running studs in the mains with factory blocks, the Dart blocks are so well made with the billet caps and the main webbing being so strong, you don't need a stud in these. All the Dart blocks have bolts. Made 2200hp with a SBF and twins on a Dart block with bolts.. Espeically with turbos, where they are easier on parts when compared to other power adders, you won't need them. If you do plan on swapping to the studs, you won't have to re-line hone the block. The swap is just something that may help you sleep at night, but is not needed. As for deck sruface, it is always adviseable to check for deck height and flatness, as they are not always 100% out of the box. If they are good, run the FelPro MLS, they are much more forgiving with the surface you bolt them on. Lifter bores same thing, always a good idea to check them but they are usually good. I tend to just ream them a bit with a ball hone a little bit, but nothing major. It is usually the name of the game with this stuff. EVERYTHING you get isn't going to be 100% out of the box, even if new. Always a good idea to check everything, never assume. Hope this helps.

[CNC BLOCKS]

Hello all im in the process of building a turbo 400" sbc. i have a current 357 motor with stock gm block and splayed caps.
after feeling unshure of the blocks strength i decided i would build another motor.
so i bought a 31132211 dart little m 400 block. showing in the jegs cat that only final hone is needed for a std bore.. i paid extra money for the billett caps cause i wanted a strong block. and plan on making arround 1400 hp.
so i open talked to other people having issues with dart a1 studs and the nuts exploding. and dart sent them arp studs for replacments.
but my little m dosent have studs?
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Mattsv8_03/SSPX4379.jpg
Shouldent a race block with the optional billett caps have studs for strength
then i was wondering if i go and have to buy new studs from arp. do i have to have the caps re align honed?. this race block is gona end up costing over 3000 dollars by the time all the machine work is finished. also people recomend having the deck redone for mls gaskets, and lifter bores honed or at least checked.
this is really sucking right now.:mad:


A while back you asked the same question and I answered you with this post and its up to you weather or you use studs in your block, Number one you said
talked to other people having issues with dart a1 studs and the nuts exploding.
Dart does not use studs and nuts on their blocks...

We machine a fair amount of blocks for other shops and engine builders all over and have never heard of any issues with their hardware and again we add studs to alot of blocks and when changing to studs ARP does recomend the block be line honed when installing their hardware!! Some time we see the housing bore change when installing studs and even with the Dart bolts sometimes when relubing and retorquing we may see change from time to time.

All the blocks we move we do line hone to the high side and so far no one has complained and if any one has ever bought a Bowtie block those also are on the high side.

Here is the quote and everything needs to be checke before assemabled


We machine alot of Dart blocks for engines builders and other shops.

95% of the time most guys want main studs installed and after installing the studs in some cases we see the housing bores tighten up, So we line hone the main line on the 400 blocks to 2.8415

The blocks come with a 9.025 decks and most piston, rods and cranks require a 9.000 deck for zero deck.

Lifter bores we make sure they are to the GM tolerance of .8438 to .8443 but again most of the time most guys are asking for .904 lifter bores now.

The cylinder do come on your block appox. 4.120 and do need to be plate honed using the same gasket and hardware you will be using in your build.

Freeze plug and rear cam plug holes need to be chamfered.

Bottom of the cylinders should be camfered.

All the pipe plug hole should be taped deeper

Rear main bearing area needs to be deburred.

Water holes in the decks need to be matched to the head gasket.

On the 400 main line blocks fit up your oil pump and oil pump shaft and distributor to make sure that you don't need to any extra clearancing.

Thats pretty much what we do to the Little-M blocks.

And we charge for the block and the machine work 2695.00

When building a performace engine everything has to be checked and clearanced to the builders specs.

Dart blocks are great foundation to start with but everything needs to be checked before assembled. I MEAN EVERYTHING

[Awesome Bill]

Hello all im in the process of building a turbo 400" sbc. i have a current 357 motor with stock gm block and splayed caps.
after feeling unshure of the blocks strength i decided i would build another motor.
so i bought a 31132211 dart little m 400 block. showing in the jegs cat that only final hone is needed for a std bore.. i paid extra money for the billett caps cause i wanted a strong block. and plan on making arround 1400 hp.
so i open talked to other people having issues with dart a1 studs and the nuts exploding. and dart sent them arp studs for replacments.
but my little m dosent have studs?
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Mattsv8_03/SSPX4379.jpg
Shouldent a race block with the optional billett caps have studs for strength
then i was wondering if i go and have to buy new studs from arp. do i have to have the caps re align honed?. this race block is gona end up costing over 3000 dollars by the time all the machine work is finished. also people recomend having the deck redone for mls gaskets, and lifter bores honed or at least checked.
this is really sucking right now.:mad:

Whoever told you about bolts falling out or breaking did not tighten them @ all and now try to run for cover and say the bolts are no good. That is bull____!. You do not have to run main studs and it will yeild no more strength that is usable. If you put studs in, you will have to align hone to get the hole round again. Don't do it, I have never put main studs in any DART block and have never seen any bolt failure. I have seen engines come in for freshen ups and found the bolts loose, but I know for a fact they were never torqued, the assembler over looked them.

If Dart thought for 1 minute that their bolts would fail, do you honestly think they would install them? The only people who say and think this are the ones trying to make themselves think they are better than Dart by making you think they are also smarter than Dart. I think not. They have designed this block to handle 1500 hp with no problems. Billet Steel Caps offer no extra strength over the normal caps!

Run them and you will see NO problems at all if you torque all of them!

[Mattsv8_03]

ok guys. i figured the bolts wouldent break. but the a1 studs were breaking the nut was snapping. i just am used to any production block having to run studs is a priority.
ill be running the a1 bolts that are in the block.
thanks for all the help guys

[Trmnatr]

A while back you asked the same question and I answered you with this post and its up to you weather or you use studs in your block, Number one you said

Dart does not use studs and nuts on their blocks...

We machine a fair amount of blocks for other shops and engine builders all over and have never heard of any issues with their hardware and again we add studs to alot of blocks and when changing to studs ARP does recomend the block be line honed when installing their hardware!! Some time we see the housing bore change when installing studs and even with the Dart bolts sometimes when relubing and retorquing we may see change from time to time.

All the blocks we move we do line hone to the high side and so far no one has complained and if any one has ever bought a Bowtie block those also are on the high side.

Here is the quote and everything needs to be checke before assemabled

I agree, everything needs to be checked. Thats for sure

What are you using and a chamfering cone or something on your CNC machine?

Can you do block lightening on a used Dart block if it is cleaned and all before shipping? I had a friend ask me who can do it, He was looking at getting a new Dart block that is lightened from the get go but the price is a little too much for him right now with a rebuild

[CNC BLOCKS]

I agree, everything needs to be checked. Thats for sure

What are you using and a chamfering cone or something on your CNC machine?

Can you do block lightening on a used Dart block if it is cleaned and all before shipping? I had a friend ask me who can do it, He was looking at getting a new Dart block that is lightened from the get go but the price is a little too much for him right now with a rebuild

Butch

We stopped lightning blocks years ago as it very labor intensive and it ties up the CNC machines for about 18 hours. Right now we are behind about 2 1/2 weeks between both shops.

We chamfer all our blocks with a cutter and the program is all adjustable so we can do any chamfer that is needed and every chamfer is the same per block!

Here is a pic of the chamfering tool.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/CNCBLOCKS/MACHINING007.jpg

[Trmnatr]

Butch

We stopped lightning blocks years ago as it very labor intensive and it ties up the CNC machines for about 18 hours. Right now we are behind about 2 1/2 weeks between both shops.

We chamfer all our blocks with a cutter and the program is all adjustable so we can do any chamfer that is needed and every chamfer is the same per block!

Here is a pic of the chamfering tool.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/CNCBLOCKS/MACHINING007.jpg

Thanks Carl, Do you know of any shops that do just block lightening you could give me to refer him too? Does Dart do it to used cleaned Dart blocks?

We used to have the 283's chamfered at the top of the cylinder, He used a chamfering cone. It sure was not fast but the GM 292 heads needed the cylinders chamfered or so we thought back then due to the little they hang over the bores

[CNC BLOCKS]

Thanks Carl, Do you know of any shops that do just block lightening you could give me to refer him too? Does Dart do it to used cleaned Dart blocks?

We used to have the 283's chamfered at the top of the cylinder, He used a chamfering cone. It sure was not fast but the GM 292 heads needed the cylinders chamfered or so we thought back then due to the little they hang over the bores


We send them to http://www.wellsracing.com/ for lighting our blocks we use for circle track racing.

Here are some pics of their work

Front of block
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/CNCBLOCKS/LITTLE-MBLOCKANDLIFTERBOREFIXTURE021.jpg

Rear of block
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/CNCBLOCKS/LITTLE-MBLOCKANDLIFTERBOREFIXTURE018.jpg

Lifter galley
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/CNCBLOCKS/LITTLE-MBLOCKANDLIFTERBOREFIXTURE010.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/CNCBLOCKS/LITTLE-MBLOCKANDLIFTERBOREFIXTURE013.jpg

[lun40119]

I am digging the block work Gramps.....................looks pretty nice!!!!!!:eek:

[3V Performance]

I have one in the shop from LSM. 157lbs. We can swap out yours?? :cool:

[lun40119]

Might as well.............................:)

[Awesome Bill]

I have one in the shop from LSM. 157lbs. We can swap out yours?? :cool:

We have a customers new build 23° comp engine right now and had the block lightened from the manufacture, nothing like what Carl showed but it sure is nice. Its already aluminum so we are good. Never had to many calls for the lightened blocks. With having tons of power to deal with, if we need any more power, we just change out the pills or the upper pulley! Beautiful block work for sure Carl. How much does that take off for the raised cam Dart Block and how much does that cost for 18 hours of cnc work?

[CNC BLOCKS]

We have a customers new build 23° comp engine right now and had the block lightened from the manufacture, nothing like what Carl showed but it sure is nice. Its already aluminum so we are good. Never had to many calls for the lightened blocks. With having tons of power to deal with, if we need any more power, we just change out the pills or the upper pulley! Beautiful block work for sure Carl. How much does that take off for the raised cam Dart Block and how much does that cost for 18 hours of cnc work?

Never had a raised cam tunnel block lightened and we get 70 dollars an hour!!

[Trmnatr]

Never had a raised cam tunnel block lightened and we get 70 dollars an hour!!

You dont get more than that for CNC work??

We used to grind old small block GM blocks smooth inside, outside and all. Our thinking when we were dumb is it would shave some weight, All that work for BS weight lol

We still do in the block, drainbacks on ALL of them. We square the rear drainbacks with a grinder and polish it out good

I almost tried valley paint one time but that shyt scares me lol So we stick with grinding and polishing

[Awesome Bill]

18 hours @ 70.00 or roughly $1250 for taking 10-15 lbs off, I guess that would be a decent price for .001 or .0015 in drag racing if you were desparte. What people will pay for to think they will go faster? CNC work per hour even @ 70.00 is pretty good.

I can see that for roundy boyz. Getting the weight off and below the centerline would help some!

[CNC BLOCKS]

18 hours @ 70.00 or roughly $1250 for taking 10-15 lbs off, I guess that would be a decent price for .001 or .0015 in drag racing if you were desparte. What people will pay for to think they will go faster? CNC work per hour even @ 70.00 is pretty good.

I can see that for roundy boyz. Getting the weight off and below the centerline would help some!

By the time all the machine work was done the weighed 166 pounds from 210 pounds is 44 pounds of weight of the block, Most of the block lightning is for circle track racing where its allowed and is more common with the sprint car guys.

[CNC BLOCKS]

You dont get more than that for CNC work??

We used to grind old small block GM blocks smooth inside, outside and all. Our thinking when we were dumb is it would shave some weight, All that work for BS weight lol

We still do in the block, drainbacks on ALL of them. We square the rear drainbacks with a grinder and polish it out good

I almost tried valley paint one time but that shyt scares me lol So we stick with grinding and polishing

We charge out block work differently to , probe a block out, deck, bore, chamfer the top of the cylinders, over size the lifter bores and stroker clrearance if need roughly takes an hour and 15 minutes and we get 850.00 which is not bad.

If you got 3 or 4 blocks to run through at one time thats a preety good days pay!!

[Awesome Bill]

By the time all the machine work was done the weighed 166 pounds from 210 pounds is 44 pounds of weight of the block, Most of the block lightning is for circle track racing where its allowed and is more common with the sprint car guys.

40 some lbs off the front end is very nice for sure. That is most likely well worth if for that much off. Stock Car boyz that are running out front or wanting to run out front will pay for the lightweight stuff for sure. I should start doing more of those engines now.

[CNC BLOCKS]

40 some lbs off the front end is very nice for sure. That is most likely well worth if for that much off. Stock Car boyz that are running out front or wanting to run out front will pay for the lightweight stuff for sure. I should start doing more of those engines now.

If your good you should already be doing them LOL as we do both straight line boyz as well as circle track and we work with alot of shops all over the U.S. and Canada.

Circle track market is a real good market if you know what you are doing and being able to be on other forums helps alot!!!!


-Was there a purpose to this post other than to be condescending? I'll remind everyone that things have been good on here since the bickering stopped. If it starts again, I'll hand out suspensions as necessary. -DV

[DartCamaro]

We ( Dart Machine ) can lighten your brand new block before it ever ships out to you. You would have to call for pricing to get an exact amount.

[want-a-be]

We ( Dart Machine ) can lighten your brand new block before it ever ships out to you. You would have to call for pricing to get an exact amount.

Yea, but what do you know,...you're just a new guy. :p LOL

Don

[DartCamaro]

Yea, but what do you know,...you're just a new guy. :p LOL

Don

LOL....darn, called out right away :( Ya, just decided to get online and see whats on here ;)

[want-a-be]

Glad to have you bud,...sounds like you have some experience to bring to the table. Good groupe of guys that hang out on here. Fight like brothers and sisters some times but we usually get around that. btw,...Jake would be the sis...lol

Don

[brayanaustin]

hardware and re-add a lot of locks and bolts ARP studs when they are not recommended on the block line honed the installation of their equipment go away! Sometimes you see the exchange accommodation capacity, when you install the pins, bolts, and even sometimes when Dart relubing retorquing and we will see change from time to time.

[Awesome Bill]

If your good you should already be doing them LOL as we do both straight line boyz as well as circle track and we work with alot of shops all over the U.S. and Canada.

Circle track market is a real good market if you know what you are doing and being able to be on other forums helps alot!!!!

It is a proven fact that when you specialize in one particular area, you become the best, when you try to be good at many, your just so so. That is why we have specialist in particular areas especially in medicine. True, engines are engines but your still dividing your time and experience and you become a medium and that is why no one knows who you are! We are known world wide and ship overseas more than ever. We like the boyz over there, they talk funny mate!

What I find with doing 2 types of engines is that you get way to busy and then you wind up waiting for years or even longer to get a set of heads, or get a engine freshened. We specialize in 1 area of racing and that is drag, we do do marine and crate engines but the roundy rounders are not worth it to me to add in another 40-50 engines per year and another 2-4 people. Either I would have to go back completely or leave them alone. Not to say I will not freshen them or even build some, we do, but I have so much drag and crate engine work, I feel bad when I can't get it turned around in 2 weeks.

Keeping a shop efficient is half the problem, to many employees, new employees to replace quitters, and they mess up and you wind up going backward. 10 guys is a ton to handle. All of them with problems and they all can't do it, then they get sick, their wives have to go to the doctor, it just aint worth loading my schedule. So we keep it very simple. I can build a brand new engine in less than 1 week top to bottom and dyno tested and shipped if I have to.We actually keep more hard core parts on the floor than most warehouses with inventory! Freshen ups or repairs are done within 2 weeks or even faster if it is our engine and needs to be turned around.

I will not allow a customer to wait unless they tell me they are willing to wait because they are not in a hurry. We have customers that are planning 1 year in advance, that is nice. But mostly we can deliver within 1 month. So we will just keep doing it the way we have proven it to work. Good quality dyno tested and proven before it leaves the shop.

[Dart Vader]

Edited and deleted several argumentive posts. Don't post unless you're contributing to the thread.
-DV

[Awesome Bill]

Hello all im in the process of building a turbo 400" sbc. i have a current 357 motor with stock gm block and splayed caps.
after feeling unshure of the blocks strength i decided i would build another motor.
so i bought a 31132211 dart little m 400 block. showing in the jegs cat that only final hone is needed for a std bore.. i paid extra money for the billett caps cause i wanted a strong block. and plan on making arround 1400 hp.
so i open talked to other people having issues with dart a1 studs and the nuts exploding. and dart sent them arp studs for replacments.
but my little m dosent have studs?
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d71/Mattsv8_03/SSPX4379.jpg
Shouldent a race block with the optional billett caps have studs for strength
then i was wondering if i go and have to buy new studs from arp. do i have to have the caps re align honed?. this race block is gona end up costing over 3000 dollars by the time all the machine work is finished. also people recomend having the deck redone for mls gaskets, and lifter bores honed or at least checked.
this is really sucking right now.:mad:

I just learned from a gentleman that they did have some fasteners that when torqued up the nuts exploded. More likely just popped apart. Most likely the nuts were way over treated or just way to brittle. This was a first run of changing to studs and most likely got the fasteners in from a manufacture and they were faulty. Personally I never saw one block with studs, except for the new PBM by MERLIN stuff. I have always used the fasteners (bolts) from Dart and never has a failure. So I guess there were some problems that I never seen so it was not bogus. Problem was fixed I was told and everything has been fine.

[ash]

We ( Dart Machine ) can lighten your brand new block before it ever ships out to you. You would have to call for pricing to get an exact amount.

you guys got a 'ball park figure' ?

thanks

[Awesome Bill]

you guys got a 'ball park figure' ?

thanks

$750.00-1200.00 is normal

[McGurk]

Hello,

Back in the late 70's I ran a blown alcohol 364ci SBC in Pro Comp (6.20 @224 MPH). The first problem that I encountered was main bearing caps walking on the block which quickly ruined the block. I bought one of the very first GM high nickel blocks and did a bunch of work on the main bearing caps in order to stop them from walking. 1st: I drilled and reamed through the outboard main bearing bolts and down into the block 1/4". 2nd: I made some heat treated 4340 sleeves with a 1/2x20 internal thread for removal. 3rd I ground an approximately 1" flat on the surface of the main bearing caps where the forging numbers are and then ground the surface of the inboard main bearing caps where the bolts tighten against. 4th: I made some heat treated and precision ground washers and heat treated 4340 bars that tightened against the flat on the top of the main bearing caps and the spacer washers. Now the cap could no longer walk nor could it flex. I used a Hank The Crank hard chromed crankshaft so the iron flakes did not damage crankshaft. I raced the car for two seasons on the same set of bearings.

After completely preparing the block I went to install the cam bearings. GM had not properly retooled for machining the high nickel iron and the boring tool broke down in the cam bearing bore making it impossible to install cam bearings. I had to make bar hangers and finish boring the cam bearing bore. Fortunately I had a good reference bore at both ends of the block to align the boring shaft.

I'm currently building a blown alcohol 400ci SBC using a Dart Little M block with billet steel main caps. Will the splayed bolts in the main bearing caps keep them from walking on the block? If not then I'm done because I'm too damn old to go through all of that crap again.

[CNC BLOCKS]

I'm currently building a blown alcohol 400ci SBC using a Dart Little M block with billet steel main caps. Will the splayed bolts in the main bearing caps keep them from walking on the block? If not then I'm done because I'm too damn old to go through all of that crap again.

It would not hurt to run studs down the center as that will give you more clamping force, Also if your tune up is right on you should not be moving caps.