Would like to find tighter center line hyd roller

[chevette20]

The setup is a 73 nova 355cid with trick flow 195 heads, flat top pistons, performer rpm int.,750 dbl pump holley, crane hyd roller with 558int and 558exh, 112 center line, 456 gear,28in tire, th350, 4500 stall, no brake. best so far 11.72 @ 114.50
Do you think a 106 or 108 center line hyd. roller would pick it up any more or would i be wasting time and money. I can not seem to find a hyd. roller any tighter than 110. Is there a reason for this? Or would I be going in the wrong direction? :eek: Thanks Scott.

[JAKEJR266]

From feed-back I've received from PCMFORLESS on tuning, a tight LSA, 108 or lower, presents tuning problems. There are tuners/re-programmers who can tackle the job, it's just more difficult.

BTW, you can call CompCams (and others) and order a cam with what ever LSA you want - no extra charge. I've done that several times over the years and as recently as last summer when I ordered a new cam for my son's 96 LT1 Vette with new Dart Pro1s. I chose the specific lobes I wanted, the specific LSA and the amount of advance to be ground in. Comp has thousands of lobes to choose from.

It took 3-4 days for me to receive the new cam - $300

Jake

My son, Ryan M. Cameron, graduated from West Point on 22 May 2010! He was commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant and I pinned on his first pair of "Butter Bars" PROUDEST DAY OF MY LIFE!!

[chevette20]

Thanks for the information jr it sounds like there are several ways to go with a camshaft. I have a set of dart 215`s but not sure if there to big for my 355 engine.I like the way it runs now but would like to see 11.40 in the near future.

[JAKEJR266]

My view is that 215's are too big for a 355, being better suited for 400+ CID engines.

Many over-cam their engines and also run heads that are too big for the application. I like to refer to it as the "Bigger is Better" syndrome at work- if 195's are good then 215's just have to be better. Seems to be the American way.

Just my opinion.

JakeJr

[want-a-be]

I think it depends on what you are wanting to do with the engine.

What RPM are you wanting to shift at? Are you willing to spend some money on a new converter? What springs are you running? What is the seat pressure of those springs and what pressure are they on the toe of the cam? What rocker ratio are you running? How much installed height do you have on the springs? How many degrees @ .050" does this cam have? What cc chambers are in the 195s, what cc chamber are the 215s? What timing are you running? Is the distributor locked out or not? How far down in the hole are your pistons? Are you running any spacer under the carb? What fuel are you running? Where is the cam installed at? Was it actually degreed in with a degree wheel or not?

I bet I could get you that .3 of a second with what you have for the most part. Might have to change 1 or 2 things. But nothing really major. I bet it could be done with the cam that you have.

Let us know about the information I've asked about first though. Might take a phone call if you're interested. That would only be for advice. Not wanting to make any money from you, just help.

I've helped a few guys on the phone around here, I don't recall making any money from it.

Don

[Trmnatr]

The tighter lobe center on a small block 23 degree engine will almost always ET faster, may not make more peak power but will ET faster

The street grind for a true street engine we use this Crane hyd roller which is custom
228/230 @.050"
.509"/.528"
108 lobe center
103 intake centerline

Its a great grind

In general, tighter lobe centers will go faster but they are more combo picky

[want-a-be]

Add,.... what is the cranking compression of this engine and, are you running a stud girdle? To my list of questions.

Don

[Awesome Bill]

The setup is a 73 nova 355cid with trick flow 195 heads, flat top pistons, performer rpm int.,750 dbl pump holley, crane hyd roller with 558int and 558exh, 112 center line, 456 gear,28in tire, th350, 4500 stall, no brake. best so far 11.72 @ 114.50
Do you think a 106 or 108 center line hyd. roller would pick it up any more or would i be wasting time and money. I can not seem to find a hyd. roller any tighter than 110. Is there a reason for this? Or would I be going in the wrong direction? :eek: Thanks Scott.

It is not true that tighter lobe sep always make more power anywhere! They will make peak power and torque in a very tight rpm band though. Some specialty racing where a 400-600 rpm band is just where they want it. The wider lobe seps produce more cylinder pressure, way broader torque curves, for tight stock convertors, and generally a better dyno graph that is flat as a good 2x6 when you need it.

The tighter lobe seps are very good for racing applications, terrible for street driving and stock aftermarket stuff. The 112 is very close and I would only go to 108-110. This seems like a drag car not a street car and seems you don't care about drive ability with the gear and crazy 4500 stall converter. The rpm band your running is more what I would be concerned with. With a hyd cam, your done way before 6000 rpm and I bet your over that in the traps?

If your already crossing over 6000rpm, anything you do with just the cams won't work. The valve train is already done. Rethink before you change the cam, generally the combination you have described is done around 5500rpm.

[chevette20]

I did not degree the camshaft. Cranking compression is 200 psi. The block is not decked so the piston is down in the hole. Im running a four hole spacer under the carburetor on a performer rpm intake. I have 1.5 ratio arms on exhaust and 1.6 ratio on intake side. I believe the chamber size is 64cc. I took the heads out of the boxes and bolted them on, they have not had any work done and are ok to 600 lift. Timing is set at 34 degrees and is locked. my trap rpm is high at around 6800 rpm. Motor does seem to pull good to 6600. This car does not see street use so im open to any good advise. The 4500 stall converter does seem high but seems to be what the engine wanted after changing from a 3500 stall. I like the camshaft 600 lift should get the job done. What about an open plane intake manifold? The @.050 int 246 and exh 254 degrees. Springs closed 110 and springs open 348 pounds. Thanks for responding. Scott..

[want-a-be]

OK,...long response I know but here goes anyways.

Here are my thoughts on changes for this combination.

Get a holley strip dominator to replace the performer intake. Try it with and without the spacer.

If it were me, I would get me some solid roller lifters and run them with the cam you are now running. You will have to change springs. But with the mild lobe your cam has I would think some where in the neighborhood of 200# on the seat ought to do you fine. I think the springs you have now are a bit light for the combination that you are running. Seat pressure should be around 145ish I would think. With the 1.6 ratio rockers you are right at 595 lift before taking away the lash. So I would put the 1.6 rockers on the exhaust also. With the 112 LSA of the cam you are right now at 200#s of cranking compression. I would stick with the 112 cam. I think it would go down with a tighter cam. Next time you have the engine apart you need to invest some time in a degree wheel. There is no telling as to where that thing is actually installed at without it. I've seen it as much as 4° either way with everything install "straight up".

What distributor are you running? Have you played around with the timing at all? I'd try bumping the timing in 2° increments up to 38° to see how the engine likes it. 34° is a very good starting point though. Flat top pistons usually don't need as much timing as domed pistons do. But moving the timing around can also tell you a bit about your jetting. Have you checked the end play of the distributor yet? It is checked with a feeler gauge between the gear and the housing. I shoot for about .010 or so. This will make your timing a lot more stable everywhere in the RPM band. You should be able to buy a shim kit from your local parts store, well if they are a good parts store that is...

What did you use in the bottom end of this combination, crank rods & pistons?

I think when you get done you are going to find out that you're going to want a converter with a stall of about 5000-5500, leaning more towards the 5500 stall. Are you allowed to run a trans brake in the class you are running? If so, I'd consider one. Oh and,...the 4500 isn't very high at all. Jake here, "the boards nut job":p, ran a 4500 stall converter on the power tour last year. Something like 2000 miles....? I expect him to weigh in on the conversation before long if he hasn't already while I was typing this out. Pretty sharp guy so you might consider his thoughts, well unless they differ with mine that is...lol

What rear suspension are you running? Slapper bars, ladder, 4-link, or what ever that other thing is these guys are running now-a-days? Once you get everything else in tune you are going to have to address this issue. What are your 60' times looking like?

I haven't had much experience with the trick flow. Mostly Dart, Brodix, Edlebrock, and a few of some head that was AFsomething or other...but I think they use recycled cans for their cores rumor has it...:rolleyes: I think you'll be able to make them work ok. Might see some gains in porting in the long run. But get the base line dialed in first. I think you have plenty left in what you have.

Also, the next time you have you engine down, check the deck height of the pistons and have the block decked to about .002-.005. Zero is ok, I just like that number for the final quench numbers once the gasket is installed. Have the heads decked to about 60-64cc or so. By then they will be in need of it anyways. Check your piston to valve clearances first though. Might do the same before putting the 1.6 rockers on the exhaust. If you have then what are the numbers?

By the time you get done with all this you ought to be able to shift at about 7200ish or so. But let me know what the bottom end is. Even if it is stock, you would be surprised as to what even a stock cast crank can hold up to when it is put together correctly.

If you need any help with any of this, PM me for my contact information and I would be glad to walk you through taking any of these measurements, or what ever else. I may not be the best here but I, like others here, am more then happy to help out. ;)

Don

[Trmnatr]

It is not true that tighter lobe sep always make more power anywhere! They will make peak power and torque in a very tight rpm band though. Some specialty racing where a 400-600 rpm band is just where they want it. The wider lobe seps produce more cylinder pressure, way broader torque curves, for tight stock convertors, and generally a better dyno graph that is flat as a good 2x6 when you need it.

The tighter lobe seps are very good for racing applications, terrible for street driving and stock aftermarket stuff. The 112 is very close and I would only go to 108-110. This seems like a drag car not a street car and seems you don't care about drive ability with the gear and crazy 4500 stall converter. The rpm band your running is more what I would be concerned with. With a hyd cam, your done way before 6000 rpm and I bet your over that in the traps?

If your already crossing over 6000rpm, anything you do with just the cams won't work. The valve train is already done. Rethink before you change the cam, generally the combination you have described is done around 5500rpm.

Bill come on, how is a wider LSA gonna produce more cylinder pressure?????

A 260/268 on a 110 with 4 degree's advance will have a IVC of 56abdc @.050" lifter rise, now do the same camshaft on a 106 with 4 degree's advance and this will have an IVC of 52abdc @.050" lifter rise

The tighter lobe center will produce more cylinder pressure

Dont even go there that overlap bleeds compression down, Overlap occours at the end of the exhaust stroke/start of the intake stroke,,,, Compression stroke is another full stroke away

I do agree that the powerband is better for racing when they are tight, I do agree its a narrow band but not a 400 to 600rpm window,,, I get as big as a 2500-2800rpm window with tight lobe centers

A hyd roller will pull more than 6000rpm when you use the correct one with the correct parts,,, People's problems with hyd rollers are they go with the new modern grind that is so aggressive it needs spring pressure that you can not throw at a hyd roller lifter (most of them anyways) to control the valve

I use a 2.02" valve or 2.055" hollow stem, I dont like 2.08" with a hyd roller. I use a H-11 Manley spring that has ~450 open and I use Manley TI Retainers and they control it to 7000rpm (cars have gained top end with this set up by gearing/converter for 7000rpm in the lights)

[chevette20]

Thank you for the advise. I also think a higher stall and trans brake would help. The center line change can what til winter refresh. I have a victor jr my son was using last year laying around here some where. I will degree the camshaft next time also. The 60ft times are in the mid 1.6s which I think is ok for just letting off foot brake and mashing the pedal. The correct way to change camshaft timing is still with camshaft gear bushings right, I just do not see them for sale in the catalogs any more. Once again thank you and I will let you guys know what changes I will make and the results. Scott..:D

[pschnick]

they do make some very nice timing chain sets that have adjustment built into the top gear, eliminates the need for bushings, which can also cause issues, kind of an old school method these day.


this is one I have been using lately,

http://www.competitionproducts.com/SA-Gear-Adjustable-Timing-Set-Chev-SB/productinfo/78700/

[want-a-be]

Cloyes makes a good timing set. Its number is 9-3500TX9. It is a great timing set,...especially for the money. The crank gear has keyways cut every 2° in it. If you can't dial it in with this set then it probably can't be dialed in...lol

You could pretty much make the Hyd. roller lifters solid if you want to try it. Install a longer pushrod, around +.050 to +.100 or so. Then set the lash like you would the solid rollers. Basicly you are only letting about .020 of the hydraulics to operate in the lifters. Works just like solids do except they won't be as noisey.

That Vic Jr ought to pick you up a bit,...I'd make that change in a heart beat.

You can change your springs while the heads are on. Get ahold of me and I can walk you through it. It would be tons easier if you had some of the tools I have. But they sell a cheaper tool that may work. But what I have will take a set of springs to coil bind, even at about 1200 pounds or so, and not bend or flex at all. As of now, there are only 2 in captivity. I have a third being made so I can start marketing them. But that will take a little time. My machinest friend has been pretty busy lately.

Do you have the 1.6 rockers for the exhaust also?

Don

[chevette20]

I did buy a complete set of 1.6s so I will try them on the exhaust side too. So your idea with the springs and solid lifters are because you think I should be turning this little motor a little harder? The single plane should help out with that to. I suppose it should all be changed at the same time for best results. You guys never really say much about the oil pans and what kind of power is going to come from just a pan change. Is it worth 10 hp or more with one of those higher dollar pans? The other thing I see here is motors making lots of power, but at lower rpm than the heads, intake and camshaft are good for. The camshaft and dual plane I run should pull air to 6500 rpm but make most power around 6000rpm. Wheres the restriction? I would think a 750 holley would not be the problem on a 355 engine. The beer can heads I run now are 2.02 intake and 1.6 exhaust.:) Scott..

[want-a-be]

You guys never really say much about the oil pans and what kind of power is going to come from just a pan change. Is it worth 10 hp or more with one of those higher dollar pans? The camshaft and dual plane I run should pull air to 6500 rpm but make most power around 6000rpm. Wheres the restriction? I would think a 750 holley would not be the problem on a 355 engine. The beer can heads I run now are 2.02 intake and 1.6 exhaust.:) Scott..

Yea, you can make power with a well designed oil pan. Then ones that will make the better power usually requires you to run the starter on the opposite side due to the kick out that will be going down that side.

I'd say your shortage of power it caused by 2 things. The intake and your lack of spring pressure. Intake explains itself. Every time the valve bounces due to low spring pressure power leaks right past it.

lol...I wasn't calling your heads beer can heads...

Don

[Awesome Bill]

Bill come on, how is a wider LSA gonna produce more cylinder pressure?????

A 260/268 on a 110 with 4 degree's advance will have a IVC of 56abdc @.050" lifter rise, now do the same camshaft on a 106 with 4 degree's advance and this will have an IVC of 52abdc @.050" lifter rise

when you have a tighter lobe sep, both valves are open longer and this all but terrifies the air fuel mixture coming in. Any time you can spread these out, you will have a better air path which will yeild more cylinder pressure just from a better charge. Cylinder pressure is determined by air and fuel threw the whole cycle, not just some cranking compression figure. Surely you know this?

The tighter lobe center will produce more cylinder pressure not true for sure. Your just making a general statement here and does not apply across the borad as a standard for figuring. You run your tight lobe seps on your stuff. That is your choice, I will adjust it to work with the combination when needed.

Dont even go there that overlap bleeds compression down, Overlap occours at the end of the exhaust stroke/start of the intake stroke,,,, Compression stroke is another full stroke away but you all but stop the air sometimes and in certain applicaitons. When both valves are open at the wrong time or too long, this kills the air flow and sometimes backs it up. Mostly at lower rpms. I have even seen fuel being pushing back out the stacks on some of that tight lobe junk. To say tight lobe seps always makes more power is near ridiculous.

I do agree that the powerband is better for racing when they are tight, I do agree its a narrow band but not a 400 to 600rpm window,,, I get as big as a 2500-2800rpm window with tight lobe centers not for higher rpm engines like comp stuff and pro stock

A hyd roller will pull more than 6000rpm when you use the correct one with the correct parts,,, People's problems with hyd rollers are they go with the new modern grind that is so aggressive it needs spring pressure that you can not throw at a hyd roller lifter (most of them anyways) to control the valve I can get a hyd roller to pull to 8800 rpm if I want, that is not a problem. Its is actually using it up there. The problem is most people use very heavy valve train with these hp crate engines and expect them to turn and make power up there with the heavy stuff. The only way to do this is with a larger cam core, like the LS series stuff, not some secret lobe that requires more spring, the trick is to use less pressure and a larger cam core!

I use a 2.02" valve or 2.055" hollow stem, I dont like 2.08" with a hyd roller. I use a H-11 Manley spring that has ~450 open and I use Manley TI Retainers and they control it to 7000rpm (cars have gained top end with this set up by gearing/converter for 7000rpm in the lights)

what in the world would a 2.08 valve have to do with anything? With all crate engines, people have all ready spent the money. They are not going to pull it back apart and change the valves, pushrods, retainers etc out for the lightweight stuff.

Your talking 2 different engines here. Something that will live and something that is built to handle more rpm. Generally speaking here, street engines with hyd cams are done @ 5000-5500 rpm, this is sbc stuff. flat tappet street engines 5500-6000rpm sbc stuff, hyd rollers will go to 6000rpm before giving up.

BBC stuff you can forget it. The heavier 2.300 valve that is pretty standard now kills the exact same lifter used in the SBC. So how can you say is the same across the board with sbc and bbc? not going to happen. Huge difference in SBC and BBC valve train weight so the exact same lifter is dead before it even gets a change with the stock hyd roller stuff. The only way they have gotten these things to really go is the 55mm+ stuff that has the new lobe you say don't work. Funny how GM Ford Chrysler have cam cores for hyd rollers larger than some mains. Wonder what they think that is for? Most likely you think the SBCircle stuff can run with the 55mm stuff? Don't think so. Major advancements in hyd and solid valve train control is not a lobe, its the base of the cam core. It also requires way less closed and open pressure to control the opening and closings. I would do a little homework before making suggestions that just a lobe will do it. Not going to happen with small base circles.

Specialty hyd roller stuff is one thing, real street stuff is another. Don't even go there with the I build them all the same and have some trick special master lobe, you don't. Comp Cams have some pretty good masters that I have found no one to make any better with the hyd roller set up. Roller stuff, Dema Elgin from Super lobes know his stuff for sure! Best lobe profiles I have ever used. LSX stuff for a stock camshaft is now 55mm? Can't imagine what a 60mm hyd roller would do for rpm and valve train stability. We are already implementing 50 and 55mm cores for all our engines, something that really matters.