Alot of Q's for a SBC build?

[glpg80]

i am planning a water/methanol injected, carbed, sleeper 450 ci SBC

transmission is a liberty gears built TKO 600, cryo treated, shift rail upgrades, faceplated gears. have not spoken to liberty about the trans and whether it can hold up. i would rather run a lenco trans, but would have to change vehicle designs. ill explan later.

would like to run a high compression setup at first for NA class, but do not know what range most guys would like to see in their builds, possibly 13:1 - 16:1? anyone has any recommendations here i am all ears. the block, heads, and intake i would like to handle possible forced induction down the road with a rebuild from flat top, to dished pistons (to get the mechanical compression ratio down to 9.3:1 ish), but i would like to run NA for a while first, and have room to grow.

id like to use the 4.500" spacing dart block. but do not have alot of information as to what heads are allowed to be ran with the block?

ive been eying the dart 9* heads, as it fits along with the build i have planned out well so far (diamond pistons, jesel shaft mount, etc)

my first question is knowing what heads can be ran or modified for the extra spacing of the dart block?

do the blocks come honed or does a .005" honing job need to be done first?

i would like to have the block machined and threaded for LS2 timing-chain dampeners, is that possible or no?

what is the required diameter for the lifters of dart blocks? do they need brass sleeves?

details:

9.500" deck heighth
6.125" connecting rods - MGP alluminum
4.180" bore
4.500" spacing
4.100" stroke. callies crank, magnum XL series (or a 1 off for the spacing needed for a 4.500 block spacing block?)
CH of 1.320"
diamond 9* pistons (as required for 9* heads)

isky red zone lifters, full mechanical roller
morel pushrods (w/ oil holes)
jesel shaft mount pro series 1.8:1 rockers

.700 intake .720 exhaust total valve lift with rocker ratio

hopefully i can spin this to 8000 RPM all day long, but also have enough manners to weekend warrior it.

i plan to inject into the intake manifold per cylinder after the carb, although im open to any information here as to locations.

fuel choice for this build is tough - i'd like 93 octane + water/meth, although full methanol at all times is also an option. but i dont believe the state i live in allows for such motors on the road. possible E85? not sure yet on this subject.

rearend is a 4.11 detroit locked fab9 housing and alston backhalf, GM bolt pattern.

vehicle is a 1985 S10.

if the transmisson wont hold up to what i have planned, i will do a bastard-child foxbody 5.0 build, or a late 70's malibu and use a lenco transmisson. that might back-scratch a few people on the 5.0 build, but i have never not seen a foxbody that had hookup problems.

thanks ahead of time, let me know if anything seems out of the wild.

take care of yourselves,

-matt

[lun40119]

First get out your check book..............as grey as your build sounds, you will have tons of parts left over when you are done. Ill buy them, so don't throw them away. Second, if you are going to use a 9° head. Throw some lift at it Jebus. Those heads are the baddest thing around. Buy your block and have the builder do the honing. Honing is key, and make sure it is done properly. Alot of people claim they can hone, but few can verify it. I am not sure, Carl, or Bill would know, but with the big stroke I don't think the alumy rods will fit. If you are going to do this, but a timing belt on it. It will be easier in the end. Throw the chain out. ;)

Sounds like you have a fun build ahead of you. I hope you have the coin to finish it, and let us know how it turns out.

[glpg80]

First get out your check book..............as grey as your build sounds, you will have tons of parts left over when you are done. Ill buy them, so don't throw them away. Second, if you are going to use a 9° head. Throw some lift at it Jebus. Those heads are the baddest thing around. Buy your block and have the builder do the honing. Honing is key, and make sure it is done properly. Alot of people claim they can hone, but few can verify it. I am not sure, Carl, or Bill would know, but with the big stroke I don't think the alumy rods will fit. If you are going to do this, but a timing belt on it. It will be easier in the end. Throw the chain out. ;)

Sounds like you have a fun build ahead of you. I hope you have the coin to finish it, and let us know how it turns out.

thanks for the reply!

i am sure i can find someone to do the honing correctly, there are alot of pro shops in the mooresville area, and ITT tech is not far away.

can the 9* heads be drilled for the extra two bolts needed for the 4.5 spacing block? the way dart has it explained in their tech sheets, is that new model heads are the only ones capable of fitting the block, but no actual specification as to what exact models. the 9* heads dont have 4.5 spacing as an option to select, only 4.400. and they also dont have the specific minimum bore of the 4.50 block selectible either. just a little fuzzy on this topic.

yeah i am holding back on the lift now - i originally had it planned around a set of 23* heads to be ported by a specific person, but noticed that flow numbers were higher if i just went with proper degree heads for this particular application. i need to update the lifts and spring loads accordingly.

ever since i can remember i have always wanted to build a motor i knew i could enjoy, and hold nothing back. yes i am quite aware of the prices involved here. but as they always say, you have to pay to play. plus, it would be nice to have it built in general, you only live once is what i always say.

as for the jesel belt drive, i am really not a fan of them at all. they give no prior warning before they go, and to have such a motor grenade would definately not make anyone's day. i am hoping i can find an extended kaetech/IWIS chain with dampeners if the block can be machined for them. if a record is kept of the valve lash and numbers start to move, i will at least know ahead of time that the chain is slacking and purchase another. plus, this will see daily driving/weekend warrior with radials and also 1/4 mile track times here at Z max dragway. i know the jesel has more to offer in terms of horsepower, but i dont want to be rebuilding this motor every season/summer.

thanks for the hint on extra parts. the miscellaneous cost of bolts and such will also add up as well, not to mention all the little things everyone seems to forget once and a while.

[lun40119]

Interesting, I am doing a 23 degree deal down in the Mooresville area right now. .850 plus lift, steel shafts, Ti valves, cast manifold, single carb pump gas, "STREET" build. We are going to run a belt drive from Xceldyne. Looks like a really nice piece.

Who are you looking at doing the cylinder head work? My heads and intake were ported down there, as well as all the spin tron work and camshaft design. There are pics up in the Engine Porn thread if your interested. Good Luck fella.

If your starting from scratch, I would do the 9 degree stuff, I had the 23 degree heads and block, and we wanted to do this one just to prove a point. There is a "dark sided" build in the future with this guy...............:D

[glpg80]

i originally was going to have tim zepp do the headwork at timzeppengines.com, but i cant get ahold of him via email, and i dont have the heads yet, so i figured a phone call is a little much right now. ill bother people on that note when i have the major parts in hand and ready to assemble/massage together.

those heads that you are working on sound nasty. but like i mentioned, before i even think about getting heads, i need to know whether they will even fit the 4.500" spacing dart block and allow for extra head bolts drilled as required.

thats alot of lift with a 23* head, must be running some large valve reliefs in the pistons? it sounds like a great build, ill definately check out the forum for the build thread.

and yeah i know everyone would probably run a belt valvetrain drive system, but its one of those things i would feel better about with a chain. kaetech has an excellent reputation - not one single chain has ever broken in road race, dirt drag, circle track, drag racing, and normal high mileage engines :D

[lun40119]

They are in there pretty deep, but hey, it makes the piston lighter ;) Ill shoot Nate an email in the morning about the logistics of your stuff, and he will get you in touch with your answers. He has been swamped lately with this changover.

[want-a-be]

Get ahold of Tom at 3 V performance. He is down there in that neighborhood I think.

Don

[glpg80]

Get ahold of Tom at 3 V performance. He is down there in that neighborhood I think.

Don

great info, i looked up his website because the name/company sounded familiar. ill bookmark him for sure and keep him on my list of contacts for this fiesta project until i actually have the cash to float this motor build - granted i dont run into any theoretical problems being mentioned here in this topic.

thanks for all of the help!

-Matt

[lun40119]

That is who has all my stuff...........

[BIG CHIEF]

Matt,

I organized and answered your questions below. I have also added part numbers and pricing for the aluminum / Iron blocks and aluminum 4.500 B/S 9° Heads. Please let me know if you have any further questions.


Matt’s Engine Combo info - I am planning a water/methanol injected, carbed, sleeper 450 ci SBC

9.500" Deck height
6.125" Connecting rods - MGP aluminum
4.180" Bore
4.500" spacing
4.100" stroke. Callies crank, magnum XL series (or a 1 off for the spacing needed for a 4.500 block spacing block?)
Diamond 9* pistons (as required for 9* heads) CH of 1.320"
.700 Intake .720 exhaust total valve lift with rocker ratio

Aluminum block PN# 31511332 (9.500” x 4.180” x 350 x BBC Cam 4.500” B/S) $ 5,517.81
Iron Eagle block PN# 31521332 (9.500” x 4.180” x 350 x BBC Cam 4.500” B/S) $ 2,938.31

Question 1 - would like to run a high compression setup at first for NA class, but do not know what range most guys would like to see in their builds, possibly 13:1 - 16:1? Anyone has any recommendations here I am all ears.

Answer 1 - Generally about 14:1 to 14.5:1 is a good compression ratio to make decent tunable power.


Question 2 - I would like to use the 4.500" spacing dart block but do not have a lot of information as to what heads are allowed to be ran with the block?

Answer 2 – There are a couple 4.500 B/S heads on the market. We / Dart produce one PN# 14572061 which retail for $ 2,541.00 ea Bare / Unassembled. In addition Ultra Pro Machining and Matt Bieneman enterprises also produce a CNC ported casting that will accommodate this bore space.

Question 3 - Do the blocks come honed or does a .005" honing job need to be done first?

Answer 3 – No, they do not come finished honed. We leave roughly .005 -. 008 hone stock in the cylinder bores to allow for finish honing.

Question 4 - I would like to have the block machined and threaded for LS2 timing-chain dampeners, is that possible or no?

Answer 4 – No we do not provide additional machining for the LS2 timing chain dampeners as described. I would recommend against any additional machine work in this area.

Question 5 - what is the required diameter for the lifters of dart blocks? Do they need brass sleeves?

Answer 5 – There is no specific diameter or sleeves we require in our blocks. We can accommodate any diameter specified from .842” to .937”. In addition we can install lifter sleeves for conventional or keyed style lifters if requested.

Question 6 - Can the 9* heads be drilled for the extra two bolts needed for the 4.5 spacing block?

Answer 6 – Yes they can be machined and drilled for the extra bolt hole locations.

Thanks,

[glpg80]

Thanks for the organized response! i do have one more question. what is the maximum safe bore allowed for the 4.500 B/S blocks both aluminum and iron?

[Dart Vader]

4.250 is usually the maximum we recommend, although some people take the iron block to 4.310 without issue.

[glpg80]

Are special main bearings needed for the wider spacing?

what companies have developed crankshafts for the block/or are complete one off designed crankshafts required on a per-customer basis?

[Awesome Bill]

Are special main bearings needed for the wider spacing?

what companies have developed crankshafts for the block/or are complete one off designed crankshafts required on a per-customer basis?

Special mains are required if you want a 2.750" main in your special 4.5 bore spacing block. But if you use the 2.650 (400 standard main) no special bearings are needed.

Callies or Bryant make the cranks,

Brodix also has the 4.5" bore space blocks as well as a symetrical port head as well as the SBX CFE symetrical head. With any wedge style head, the 2 exhaust valves together always make it ruff on the head gasket and is considered a no no for real killer power. But with a low compression engine its not a problem. But, if you plan on a 4.350" bore, you can stuff a 4.5" crank in the 4.5" bore space block and have a really nice big 560ci Awesome Engine that we offer. It is a special engine and it is $35,000.00 all done and complete and will make and easy 1000 hp on pump gas and 1200 on race gas. Take your pick, we make them and its not a big deal. You also can go with the billet version block and make even more cu in.

We have been doing the 496ci SBC for over 4 years and the 488ci for 5. The belt drive is very nice because it keeps unwanted harmonics out of the valve train. Chains do break as well as belts. Usually a belt is only broken because something got in it. That is the only drawl back I have found from belt drives.

[glpg80]

Hey Bill,

Thanks for the information on the special block you offer. but i really dont plan on a BBC anything, at least not anytime soon, even though the cubes i am speaking of are of BB design as well. hopefully the dart iron block will have enough meat left for many more turns/honing rebuilds. a SBC 454 is enough for me for now, with prospect of possible forced induction in the future. once you mix the words BBC and 1/4" mile passes you start messing with real cash and possible race teams in this area of NC, especially with forced induction BB's. all i really want to do is build my S10 truck motor to beat on imports and run decent, reliable 8 second passes, and then drive to the ice cream store for possible celebrations :D

i also want to tackle it purchasing part by part, bolt by bolt myself, except for the honing, balancing, and heads porting. i do have porting tools available for use from my grandfather, but would rather leave it to the experienced. i will however build/tig weld my own headers, and possibly have enough balls to tackle my own sheet metal intake with a 103mm TB - who knows though at this point.

i do have questions on external wet sump vs dry sump systems. could you explain the differences? what makes a 4 stage dry sump better/equal than a 4 stage wet sump? well known/trusted companies for oil pumps/builds? any pictures i could see of external wet sump applications and belt arrangements?

i would like to stay away from dry sump, but i feel that stock oiling isnt sufficient enough.

also, could someone explain or talk about wet/dry X stage sump, with tapping the valve covers and or tapping the heads for better oiling? why do some builds only have one valve cover tapped and the opposite side is not? does it deal with overheating 7 8 cylinders (the reason 4/7 swap cams exist to help lower the problem?)

after much lurking around the forum the amount of knowledge here is daunting lol, so many questions. i dont claim to know the most about the minute details in the art of motor building, but im all game for taking the long route and learning to do it myself with this build. and yes, these are pricey parts i know. and yes. its also somewhat nieve for me to want to build this motor myself and not a pro shop, but i want to be confident enough to be able to tear it down and rebuild it/replace lifters, cams, main and rod bearings, wristpins, piston ring fitting, etc when the time comes - such a motor would be expensive to always outsource it for a refresh.

thanks again Bill, sorry for the assult of more questions and rambling.

-Matt

[Awesome Bill]

Hey Bill,

Thanks for the information on the special block you offer. but i really dont plan on a BBC anything, at least not anytime soon, even though the cubes i am speaking of are of BB design as well. hopefully the dart iron block will have enough meat left for many more turns/honing rebuilds. a SBC 454 is enough for me for now, with prospect of possible forced induction in the future. once you mix the words BBC and 1/4" mile passes you start messing with real cash and possible race teams in this area of NC, especially with forced induction BB's. all i really want to do is build my S10 truck motor to beat on imports and run decent, reliable 8 second passes, and then drive to the ice cream store for possible celebrations :D

i also want to tackle it purchasing part by part, bolt by bolt myself, except for the honing, balancing, and heads porting. i do have porting tools available for use from my grandfather, but would rather leave it to the experienced. i will however build/tig weld my own headers, and possibly have enough balls to tackle my own sheet metal intake with a 103mm TB - who knows though at this point.

i do have questions on external wet sump vs dry sump systems. could you explain the differences? what makes a 4 stage dry sump better/equal than a 4 stage wet sump? well known/trusted companies for oil pumps/builds? any pictures i could see of external wet sump applications and belt arrangements?

i would like to stay away from dry sump, but i feel that stock oiling isnt sufficient enough.

also, could someone explain or talk about wet/dry X stage sump, with tapping the valve covers and or tapping the heads for better oiling? why do some builds only have one valve cover tapped and the opposite side is not? does it deal with overheating 7 8 cylinders (the reason 4/7 swap cams exist to help lower the problem?)

after much lurking around the forum the amount of knowledge here is daunting lol, so many questions. i dont claim to know the most about the minute details in the art of motor building, but im all game for taking the long route and learning to do it myself with this build. and yes, these are pricey parts i know. and yes. its also somewhat nieve for me to want to build this motor myself and not a pro shop, but i want to be confident enough to be able to tear it down and rebuild it/replace lifters, cams, main and rod bearings, wristpins, piston ring fitting, etc when the time comes - such a motor would be expensive to always outsource it for a refresh.

thanks again Bill, sorry for the assult of more questions and rambling.

-Matt
you have a lot of questions so I would hit the books and find out! This is what we do and have done it for years. what we know here is self taught and many things you read are just made to open the wallet. in your case where you want to do it all yourself, I respect that and appreciate a willing subject to try it. nothing like learning and then paying over and over for stuff we learned years ago. all respected engine builders have done this and know what to do and what not to. so I for one have paid!

What I will tell you is there are huge benefits from a dry sump and that is all that can be said. safety is a factor if something breaks and real power can be made with way less problems. no vacuum pump is needed with a 4 or 5 stage dry sump is also a consideration. Just take a look into Moroso dry sump and wet sumps and you will get a picture really quick.