Rich or Lean

[chevman24]

Engine is a Chevy 350 with Dart 215's and a lunati cam p/n60103.
I used two different plugs here but they are the same heat range with a .35 gap. I used autolites (on the far left) for cam break-in, they are pn 3924 plug. But i used a NGK during attempted tuning. (I didnt want to go back to Walmart if you are wondering why i switched plugs) With the autolites i used a 72 main jet and an 80 secondary, with the NGK's i switched out the jets to a 70 main and 78 secondary. The reason i changed the jets was because i had a rich exhaust smell. Thinking leaning out the A/F Ratio would help, it did not. I still have the rich smell.
My question is this. Based on the looks of the plugs can you tell if im rich or lean. I have an A/F monitor, which indicated slightly rich, but that may be faulty. Not to mention bad idle characteristics. Ill post video if thats what is required. Im not expecting an absolute answer since its very hard to diagnose an engine tuning problem via the internet.
Here are the plugs
http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b413/chevman24/101_0702.jpg

Thanks in advance for the help!!

[want-a-be]

Sooo,.....are you smelling the fuel smell at an idle or while going down the road?

To check you plugs you need to get this thing under a good load, then should it off right when you let off. Coast to a stop. Tow it back and pull the plugs. If you're not doing it this way you are tainting the test.

Don

[chevman24]

Sooo,.....are you smelling the fuel smell at an idle or while going down the road?

To check you plugs you need to get this thing under a good load, then should it off right when you let off. Coast to a stop. Tow it back and pull the plugs. If you're not doing it this way you are tainting the test.

Don

Im smelling raw fuel at idle. This thing idles at just about 700 (says my timing light and tach) any lower and it idles very rough like it has a mis-fire. But all cylinders seem to be firing.
I put 5 gals of fresh 93 octane because i had half a tank of bad gas. It had been sitting for 6+ months while i was working on it. I cant drive the car either though. Im waiting for my throttle cable bracket that i ordered so i can mount my kickdown/detent cable bracket. I have a 700r trans and the detent must be hooked up or I burn up the trans. The carb is a Road demon 625. I need to read the vacuum when i reset the carb as well.
Otherwise the plugs look normal too me.

[Awesome Bill]

There is a big difference between smelling raw fuel and smelling exhaust. Any time you have the exhaust burning your eyes or a bad smell in general, it is always lean. The HC are killing you. This is common with the BG stuff. Take a pair of 2+2 red spray nozzle tubes and put them in the outer air bleeds while it is running, I bet it runs way better. let me know from there.

[ComaxRacing]

I agree with want-a-be don't worry agout tuning untill you can get it on the road and put the pedal to the metal. If you tune a carb at idle only, it most likely will be lean under load. I also agree about checking the plugs directly after the engine has been loaded, don't drive it back home to check, the plugs will give you the wrong reading because of all the stop and go driving. The jets you indicated seem close, almost a little lean on the primary, but as I said can't tell untill you drive it hard.

I used to just take a spark plug wrench with me and check them on the side of the road. I was lucky there was a great streach of road that was virtually empty on the weekends.


Corey

[chevman24]

I used to just take a spark plug wrench with me and check them on the side of the road. I was lucky there was a great streach of road that was virtually empty on the weekends.


Corey[/QUOTE]

There are a few of those in my area too so that shouldnt be an issue. Im cheap i dont want to tow a running car.
Took some better pics
http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b413/chevman24/101_0711.jpg
http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b413/chevman24/101_0708.jpg
http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b413/chevman24/101_0712.jpg

If it is lean that would explain the rough idle. Its harder than normal too start also. What do you guys think idle should be? here's the cam card
http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b413/chevman24/101_0696.jpg

[pschnick]

There is a big difference between smelling raw fuel and smelling exhaust. Any time you have the exhaust burning your eyes or a bad smell in general, it is always lean. The HC are killing you. This is common with the BG stuff. Take a pair of 2+2 red spray nozzle tubes and put them in the outer air bleeds while it is running, I bet it runs way better. let me know from there.


Really!?, I was behind my car taking jack stands out letting it run to warm it up to check fluids when i put my trans in a couple weeks ago, could barely keep my eyes opened burned so bad, reminded me of alcohol.

Learned something new again today, may help be a fix to my carb issues then too!! bumo the jets up a couple sizes then probably??

[chevman24]

It must be noob training day! :DGood im glad someone else is learning from the post!!

[EWC]

I used to just take a spark plug wrench with me and check them on the side of the road. I was lucky there was a great streach of road that was virtually empty on the weekends.


Corey

There are a few of those in my area too so that shouldnt be an issue. Im cheap i dont want to tow a running car.
Took some better pics
http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b413/chevman24/101_0711.jpg
http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b413/chevman24/101_0708.jpg
http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b413/chevman24/101_0712.jpg

If it is lean that would explain the rough idle. Its harder than normal too start also. What do you guys think idle should be? here's the cam card
http://i1041.photobucket.com/albums/b413/chevman24/101_0696.jpg[/QUOTE]
I have said this many times before but "I AM NO EXPERT" now thats outta the way I'd Say that thing is rich , I personally like to see them leaner than that

[ComaxRacing]

What do you have the timing set at ?

Corey

[chevman24]

What do you have the timing set at ?

Corey

To be completly honest with you i dont know what the final timing is and how i would measure that(besides with a timing light:rolleyes:). I know the distributor is initially set at a 12 degrees mechanical advance, but thats as far as i go knowledge wise when tiiming is concerned. I do have a digital timing light but have yet to figure out its correct usage. Im completly lost when it comes to that part.
I also connect the vacuum advance to a ported source of vacuum instead of a constant. With a ported vac source connected i cruise at 2500 rpms(with 2.73 rear gears), but with full manifold vac im cruising at a much higher rpm(in the 3k+ range) killing mpgs. THis was with the old stock setup though as i have only driven the car out of the garage so i didnt smoke myself/ neighbors out from exhaust fumes. I did try and connect to a constant vac source but the idle quality was the same.

[pschnick]

If it were mine I would eliminate the vacuum advace part of it all together,

bring the rpm up to about 3000 rpm and set the timing at 36, also make sure after you set the timing there it doesn't advance any further than that, if it does you'll have to respring the weight till it become fully advanced at 3000 or a little before would even be better.

vacuum advances can be a bear to get dialed in... just from my own personal experiences

[chevman24]

Update: I decided to up the jetting to 74's in the main circuit to see what would happen. Well im going to say "Awesome Bill" was correct. The engine was too lean. With the larger jets the engine fired right up without a hiccup and idles a hell of alot better than it did. That will get better when i figure out how to use my timing light. It seems to stumble just a little bit so i will try 76 jets just to see if it gets better. My A/F monitor is also reading slightly rich as well. So its going in the right direction!! I guess my guage isnt faulty.:cool:
Also the exhaust/raw fuel i was smelling was my collector donuts leaking pretty heavily. Those are ordered!! Now all i need is my throttle bracket and i can drive this hot rod. Then change the trans, and put my 3.73 gears in it and paint ............... et cetra!!:o

Thanks for all those that helped here. Its much appreciated!!!:D

[Awesome Bill]

Update: I decided to up the jetting to 74's in the main circuit to see what would happen. Well im going to say "Awesome Bill" was correct. The engine was too lean. With the larger jets the engine fired right up without a hiccup and idles a hell of alot better than it did. That will get better when i figure out how to use my timing light. It seems to stumble just a little bit so i will try 76 jets just to see if it gets better. My A/F monitor is also reading slightly rich as well. So its going in the right direction!! I guess my guage isnt faulty.:cool:
Also the exhaust/raw fuel i was smelling was my collector donuts leaking pretty heavily. Those are ordered!! Now all i need is my throttle bracket and i can drive this hot rod. Then change the trans, and put my 3.73 gears in it and paint ............... et cetra!!:o

Thanks for all those that helped here. Its much appreciated!!!:D

I am mostly right when it comes to carbs. That is what I am second best @. Any time it smells bad out the back and runs poorly, there is not enough in the cylinder to complete the burn and get all the power you want. This is unburnt fuel mixed with the bad stuff coming out. That is why it burns your eyes.

This is mostly just and idle circuit problem. WOT or racing conditions are tuned like you did. One thing, pump gas burns very ugly on the plug. Looking @ your plug the way you have it tells us nothing. You have to look all the way in the bottom of the plug to tell rich or lean. You do need more heat, which is power from the plug. I like the heat mark to extend over the radius on the ground strap and change the first couple thread colors. This usually puts the timing about right. 36-38° total timing is where it should be with pump gas and under 11: compression. This is when you mark the timing mark with white paint, on the back of your timing light run it to 36° and rev the engine to 5000rpm and make the 2 marks, one on the damper and one of the timing tab line up. That is 36° total timing @ 5000 rpm. NO your a race mechanic.

[chevman24]

I am mostly right when it comes to carbs. That is what I am second best @. Any time it smells bad out the back and runs poorly, there is not enough in the cylinder to complete the burn and get all the power you want. This is unburnt fuel mixed with the bad stuff coming out. That is why it burns your eyes.

This is mostly just and idle circuit problem. WOT or racing conditions are tuned like you did. One thing, pump gas burns very ugly on the plug. Looking @ your plug the way you have it tells us nothing. You have to look all the way in the bottom of the plug to tell rich or lean. You do need more heat, which is power from the plug. I like the heat mark to extend over the radius on the ground strap and change the first couple thread colors. This usually puts the timing about right. 36-38° total timing is where it should be with pump gas and under 11: compression. This is when you mark the timing mark with white paint, on the back of your timing light run it to 36° and rev the engine to 5000rpm and make the 2 marks, one on the damper and one of the timing tab line up. That is 36° total timing @ 5000 rpm. NO your a race mechanic.

Thanks

[lun40119]

Update: I decided to up the jetting to 74's in the main circuit to see what would happen. Well im going to say "Awesome Bill" was correct. The engine was too lean. With the larger jets the engine fired right up without a hiccup and idles a hell of alot better than it did. That will get better when i figure out how to use my timing light. It seems to stumble just a little bit so i will try 76 jets just to see if it gets better. My A/F monitor is also reading slightly rich as well. So its going in the right direction!! I guess my guage isnt faulty.:cool:
Also the exhaust/raw fuel i was smelling was my collector donuts leaking pretty heavily. Those are ordered!! Now all i need is my throttle bracket and i can drive this hot rod. Then change the trans, and put my 3.73 gears in it and paint ............... et cetra!!:o

Thanks for all those that helped here. Its much appreciated!!!:D

If your idle quality changed with a main jet change you have problems. The low speed circuit is controlled by the IFR's and the IAB's. That cam, shouldn't be causing a problem. My brother has that cam in a 327. It purrs like a kitten at 750rpm, with a 600 vac on it.

With 12 degrees initial timing, I suspect that you are smelling like bill said. Raw fuel. I would give it more initial timing. This will increase the idle speed, allowing you to close the blades. Vacuum advance is nice, especially the adjustable stuff. You can really tune for fuel economy with it. Good luck fella.

[chevman24]

If your idle quality changed with a main jet change you have problems. The low speed circuit is controlled by the IFR's and the IAB's. That cam, shouldn't be causing a problem. My brother has that cam in a 327. It purrs like a kitten at 750rpm, with a 600 vac on it.

With 12 degrees initial timing, I suspect that you are smelling like bill said. Raw fuel. I would give it more initial timing. This will increase the idle speed, allowing you to close the blades. Vacuum advance is nice, especially the adjustable stuff. You can really tune for fuel economy with it. Good luck fella.

Thanks for the input. If you care to lend a helping hand let me know! Ill try advancing initial just to see what happens. The carb recommends 14-16 initial advance anyways. I just figured that i may have to pull it back apart, since i didnt degree the cam :eek:., i just lined up the dots like most shadetree types do. Just have to mess with it more to make it right. Yes my vacuum advance is an adjustable one, but i havent messed with that yet since i cant drive it. Im disappointed i dont have my throttle bracket yet!:confused:

[Awesome Bill]

If your idle quality changed with a main jet change you have problems. The low speed circuit is controlled by the IFR's and the IAB's. That cam, shouldn't be causing a problem. My brother has that cam in a 327. It purrs like a kitten at 750rpm, with a 600 vac on it.

With 12 degrees initial timing, I suspect that you are smelling like bill said. Raw fuel. I would give it more initial timing. This will increase the idle speed, allowing you to close the blades. Vacuum advance is nice, especially the adjustable stuff. You can really tune for fuel economy with it. Good luck fella.

That is not raw fuel, that is unburnt fuel that has been mixed up with burnt gases which cause the eye burning sensation. This is always High HC and will kill you. Add a little more fuel in the base idle and it burns a more complete burn. Thus by adding fuel, you get a better idle quality. If you smell raw gas, you have a fuel leak, big difference. If you advance the timing on a distributor with a vacuum advance and don't know what you got, you could have detonation. I like the total advance set @ 5000 rpm then I know what I have. Then I plug in the vacuum advance to make sure I am only around 50° total and work back from there on driveability and no ping!

[chevman24]

Update: I advanced the initial to 14 degrees. Fired right up without issue but it still didnt have a smooth idle and my A/F guage read rich. I actually had the mech. timing set at 10 deg instead of 12. :o. Its at 14 for sure now.
I also put 78 main jets in it. The A/F meter is just about reading Stoic . Which means i probobly need to go to a size 80 jet. Seems a little large but if the A/F guage reads stoic i'll take it.:) The unburnt fuel smell is going away as well.

[lun40119]

I think we are talking about the same thing Bill, I may not have been clear. OP, brothers stuff idles at 18 degrees, and I just recurved the unilite with the handy dandy little keys. ;) I probably wasn't clear on that one for billy either. 36-38 total. :) Good luck dude.

[chevman24]

What were the jet sizes he used Jake?

[lun40119]

I don't even remember anymore. I set it up lean with the main jets for cruise, and used the pvcr's to supplement. Remember though, it is a 600.

[chevman24]

I suppose the 25 cfm makes a difference. BG's, from what i hear, actually flow the CFM they are rated to. But that may be just hearsay.:cool:

[ComaxRacing]

I am a bit lost here. I read back a few post and you said you were rich with 74's in the main. Then you stated you went to 78's and its still reading rich. Then you mentioned 80's. Unless I'm not following correctly seems to me you are going backwards. You are rich and continuing to richen. Put some 70's in it and see what the AF ratio reads. I think the timing is somewhat of an issue here, it seem like you still need more so your idle will go up and then you can close the throttle blades a little. I don't know if your carb has an intermediate circuit but it might be pulling fuel though and causing a rich condition if the blades are open too much.

I'm just throwing things out there, its been years since I tuned a carb, I could be all ass backwards:D Its been known to happen once in a while.:D


Corey

[chevman24]

I am a bit lost here. I read back a few post and you said you were rich with 74's in the main. Then you stated you went to 78's and its still reading rich. Then you mentioned 80's. Unless I'm not following correctly seems to me you are going backwards. You are rich and continuing to richen. Put some 70's in it and see what the AF ratio reads. I think the timing is somewhat of an issue here, it seem like you still need more so your idle will go up and then you can close the throttle blades a little. I don't know if your carb has an intermediate circuit but it might be pulling fuel though and causing a rich condition if the blades are open too much.

I'm just throwing things out there, its been years since I tuned a carb, I could be all ass backwards:D Its been known to happen once in a while.:D


Corey

With 70's jets the car wouldnt Idle correctly. No matter where the timing was and yes the guage read rich. Heres my theory as to why. The Air/Fuel ratio meter was reading rich because there wasnt enough fuel to supply each cylinder equally. So It was reading fumes instead of the burned HC's that the 02 sensor is intended to do. It was so lean the cylinders werent completly burning the raw fuel, causing the unburnt fuel to exit and evaporate in the hot exhaust. Causing a not so pleasant smell. Thats my understanding anyways. But I could be wrong, this is only my hobby. Now that i put 78 jets in the carb, the monitor is reading nearly Stoich. Why? because the carb is feeding the engine efficiently. Basically an A/F meter will read rich if there is too much gas, but will also read rich if you dont have enough of a fuel supply. If im wrong i hope to be corrected on this. These diagnostics could all be avoided if i could drive the car. That would tell me alot more than changing jets to correct a poor idle.

[Awesome Bill]

With 70's jets the car wouldnt Idle correctly. No matter where the timing was and yes the guage read rich. Heres my theory as to why. The Air/Fuel ratio meter was reading rich because there wasnt enough fuel to supply each cylinder equally. So It was reading fumes instead of the burned HC's that the 02 sensor is intended to do. It was so lean the cylinders werent completly burning the raw fuel, causing the unburnt fuel to exit and evaporate in the hot exhaust. Causing a not so pleasant smell. Thats my understanding anyways. But I could be wrong, this is only my hobby. Now that i put 78 jets in the carb, the monitor is reading nearly Stoich. Why? because the carb is feeding the engine efficiently. Basically an A/F meter will read rich if there is too much gas, but will also read rich if you dont have enough of a fuel supply. If im wrong i hope to be corrected on this. These diagnostics could all be avoided if i could drive the car. That would tell me alot more than changing jets to correct a poor idle.

Now your getting it. Here is a good way of looking at it. Place 5 pieces of gunpowder in a circle of 4.000" and squeeze it and then light if off in a milasecond. The lack of it will only cause a burning cycle of maybe 2 because it can not light off the rest. Now, add 10 more pieces and the whole thing goes boom. GET IT. Now his gauge was reading rich even with the 70 jets but the clue was burning of your eyes and it smelled. This was raw unburnt gas mixed with HC's ad CO's and it will kill you. Just adding a larger jet may get you into trouble. Because you are making the whole fuel curve rich. This could kill your power curve up top. You may just have to reduce the idle air bleed to make the idle circuit richer. Be careful. That is why we dyno our stuff and install replaceable air bleeds when the fuel curve up top is perfect but the idle quality is lean or rich.

The timing has very little to do with this problem.

[chevman24]

Finally got my PRP throttle cable bracket!!!!:D Looks great and i hope it works as well as it looks!! Of course ill be too busy to drive it this weekend:rolleyes:. Ill figure this thing out yet.
Update: I put #80 jets in the carb and the idle seemed to be even smoother, it is just a bit rich at idle but the A/F readings are the same as the #78 jets. So it seems as though im at the right place. *Knocks on wood!

[ComaxRacing]

Cool, looks like we will have a whole new outlook on things once you can flog the thing.
Keep us posted as to what happens.

Cheers :)

Corey

[lun40119]

That is "WAY" to much jet for a 600-650 carb. Jets, have nothing to do with your idle quality. Anyone that tells you timing has nothing to do with idle quality is dead wrong, if you are getting that stinky unburned smell in your exhaust, give it more timing lead. Of course you are going to have to recurve the distributor. Don't just increase initial and leave the total where it ends up. If you are using a "lean/stoich/rich, narrow band. Throw it away. :) You should be tuning with a wideband. Eitherway, that cam is very mild. You should have no problems getting this thing tuned up. But you are going to need more idle timing. Period.

[chevman24]

I would like to get a wideband but its not going to happen today. Hmm i just looked up the prices, they seem to have dropped since the last time i looked at them. May have to get one of these. Im going to drive it here in a few minutes, ill know pretty quick if its too rich.:)

Update; 80's are rich for sure. Put 74's back in. Will drive it this week to see how it reacts. Then go from there

[lun40119]

I would like to get a wideband but its not going to happen today. Hmm i just looked up the prices, they seem to have dropped since the last time i looked at them. May have to get one of these. Im going to drive it here in a few minutes, ill know pretty quick if its too rich.:)

Update; 80's are rich for sure. Put 74's back in. Will drive it this week to see how it reacts. Then go from there

If you have a bung in it, you are welcome to use mine. I have an innovate. What distributor do you have in it. 18, and 36 if you can. Let me know.

[Awesome Bill]

You have to be close with the jetting to make a good idle quality with an engine like this. I do agree, 80 jets are a little large if this is a 625 or 650 cfm carb. Just what is the # on this carb? But, BG stuff is really lean in most cases and the ones we have done we have always had to pull .010'-.020" out of just the air bleeds on the idle circuit to get them to work. This is on most of their street stuff. They do work good when tuned correctly.

Here is the easiest way to know if the carb jetting for the idle quality and fuel mixture is right. Bottom out the idle mixture screws and then back them out 2 full turns. Stock jetting as it come is best to start with also. With a cold engine, fire it up. If it idles its right. When it warms up to temp, screw the jets in a ¼ turn at a time until it stumbles, back it out a quarter turn from the stumble. Both sides should be the same.

If you start the engine cold and it shuts right off, the idle air bleed or main jetting is way to large. You can do 1 of 2 things. I would change the idle air bleeds until it idles. You can get them from BG or have your carb drilled and tapped for replaceable jetting.

Second, add jetting in just the front if this is a 2 air/fuel base idle jet. If its a 4 air/fuel base jetting, then you should change all base jets.These are the ones on the outside of the carb down low near the base plate on the main fuel blocks. Most likely go up 4 sizes. It is possible as I have mentioned to run rich up top when putting larger main jets in. You will have to track test.

Yes the timing should be all in around 5000 rpm and most likely 34 to 38° depending on final compression. Some people, myself included, lock the timing out if you have a MSD. I dyno, find the right setting the recurve the distributor when I am done finding out where the engine likes the timing. The total is the same but the mechanical is set up correctly.

[chevman24]

If you have a bung in it, you are welcome to use mine. I have an innovate. What distributor do you have in it. 18, and 36 if you can. Let me know.

Sorry for no responce I was out of town picking up the rest of my junk from back home. (Couple of small blocks and related parts) Know of anyone looking for a '65 small journal 327, comes with Forged stock crank. I have the matching heads too. PM if anyone is interested.
I have a bung, thats how i have the narrow band meter connected. I have a stock HEI with MSD cap and rotor, but an Accell 50k Volt coil and adjustable vac advance. I have an advance spring kit too that may be part of it(Im sure i have the stiffest springs in the advance). The way it drives and idles it seems its down a cylinder or i messed up on setting the valves somewhere, the plugs may also be fouled because of the 80 jets that were in there. Or the advance needs to be reset and i need lighter springs in the advance mechanism. Thats my guess anyways. I only drove it once and i didnt beat it like a redheaded step child.

[chevman24]

You have to be close with the jetting to make a good idle quality with an engine like this. I do agree, 80 jets are a little large if this is a 625 or 650 cfm carb. Just what is the # on this carb? But, BG stuff is really lean in most cases and the ones we have done we have always had to pull .010'-.020" out of just the air bleeds on the idle circuit to get them to work. This is on most of their street stuff. They do work good when tuned correctly.

Here is the easiest way to know if the carb jetting for the idle quality and fuel mixture is right. Bottom out the idle mixture screws and then back them out 2 full turns. Stock jetting as it come is best to start with also. With a cold engine, fire it up. If it idles its right. When it warms up to temp, screw the jets in a ¼ turn at a time until it stumbles, back it out a quarter turn from the stumble. Both sides should be the same.

If you start the engine cold and it shuts right off, the idle air bleed or main jetting is way to large. You can do 1 of 2 things. I would change the idle air bleeds until it idles. You can get them from BG or have your carb drilled and tapped for replaceable jetting.

Second, add jetting in just the front if this is a 2 air/fuel base idle jet. If its a 4 air/fuel base jetting, then you should change all base jets.These are the ones on the outside of the carb down low near the base plate on the main fuel blocks. Most likely go up 4 sizes. It is possible as I have mentioned to run rich up top when putting larger main jets in. You will have to track test.

Yes the timing should be all in around 5000 rpm and most likely 34 to 38° depending on final compression. Some people, myself included, lock the timing out if you have a MSD. I dyno, find the right setting the recurve the distributor when I am done finding out where the engine likes the timing. The total is the same but the mechanical is set up correctly.

It for sure is a 625(it has a 6 on the top back of the carb) Road demon single pump. With 4 corner idle adjustment. I would have to drill and tap if i wanted to put different idle bleeds in it. I know for sure its not setup that way. I would have needed to buy a speed demon to be able to adjust that without modifying it. I hope i dont need to mess with that.
Setting the idle screws is the easy part. Hook up a vacuum guage to full manifold vac, turn Idle screws in/out until you get the highest possible vacuum and Idle Rpms.
The engine is stock (on the bottom end). Dished pistons 76cc chambered heads and everything low powerwise. I think it was rated at 215 hp from the factory. I thought it ran well, i just wanted more without digging too deep. Like everyone else. I kind of expected that with dished pistons and large combustion chambers. The point in saying this is that i did a compression test on a couple of the cylinders and the 1 and 8 cylinders only read 90 ft lbs:(. From what i read elsewhere thats low. So hopefully i can sell some parts to help fund the new motor I intend to do. But i didnt want to do it this soon though.

[chevman24]

The spark plugs are definatly fouled.

[lun40119]

Really???? Oh yeah, several told you that 80's were way to much. :rolleyes:

[chevman24]

Smart ass. LOL:cool:

[chevman24]

If you have a bung in it, you are welcome to use mine. I have an innovate. What distributor do you have in it. 18, and 36 if you can. Let me know.

Ill try the 18 initial advance. I have the stock cover and pointer so i think that 16 is as far as i can accurately go. Have to wait for my spark plugs though. I couldnt find the NGK-4091 plugs locally so i had to order them. That Innovate A/F ratio monitor would really help, i would really appreciate the use of such a tool. Id like to own one but everyone knows how that goes. If that doesnt help fix it i guess ill have to tear back into it to see if I have some round cam lobes. I hope not. This thing should have a way better idle than it does since it seems the cam i chose seems to be fairly mild.

Any opinions on the Autometer Wideband A/F R unit? There is a rebate on it. Just a thought.

[lun40119]

5671a-7's go out by weezie, he charges (I think) around 1.80/plug. You are making life alot harder for yourself than it should be.

[chevman24]

Ill do that next time. Hopefully on replacement plugs not fouled ones next time:o
If the cam is round, its going to a roller for sure. Oh i have the next couple days off so ill have plenty of time to mess with it.

[chevman24]

Well i got the new 5671a's(NGK pn4091) gapped them to .35 and advanced the distributor to 18 degrees. It starts immediately and has very little idle stumble at about 750. Part of the problem may have been that i put too much anti-seize on the initial spark plugs (rookie mistake:o) causing a mis-fire. Hopefully most of the anti-seize is burned out of there so i can DRIVE it. T-storms and lightning wreaking havoc in my area right now so i cant drive the car.:rolleyes:

[lun40119]

If you have the initial set at 18 degrees that is great, but don't drive it that way. You need to either recurve that distributor, or buy one that is easier to limit the amount of mech advance. You need to stick to around 36-38 degrees total advance. If you drive it like that you run the risk of damaging the engine.

I don't mean to keep dogging you, but this is the way that I have always been successful getting the stuff to run well down low. I know there is a way to modify the HEI stuff, but I have never cared enough to learn. When I was 15 and needed a distributor, my dad handed me a unilite, and I have used one in every one of my engines since then.

[chevman24]

So basically i need to buy a new disributor or put the timing back to the 16-14 initial that the carb recommends:rolleyes:. Ill prolly be going back to what is recommended if thats the case, because i want to drive the car with the current engine for a while at least. Good thing its storming here or I would have driven it.
I put different springs in the advance too. I went from the heaviest springs to the lightest, thats prolly not the best way to re-curve a distrib but thats all i have to work with. Could i limit full mechanical advance with my adjustable vac advance canister?
I do have an accel HEI (remote mount coil cap) electronic distrib that needs a new pick-up coil. But I dont know if thats worth getting a bunch of parts for to get it to work with a Carb. Id probobly need a MAP sensor, and wiring to get it to work with my Crane HI-6 ignition box.:(

Here is the distrib i have.http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ACC-60109/?rtype=10
the box- http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRN-6000-6300/
I looked at the Unilite distribs too. Id need to buy new wires and everything too as they have female connectors. I could change my wires to a female plug but it wont be today.

[lun40119]

The sheet on that Accel distributor says it is preset with 12 degrees of mech advance. Put that one in and set it for 16 degrees, and end up with 38. Should be fine.

[chevman24]

Its electronic though and designed to be computer controlled . I dont know how i would hook it up. Obviously with wires:rolleyes: probobly a M.A.P sensor of some type too. How do NASCAR teams do it? I know they use all electronic stuff. But i would think that would work for me. Maybe i should start a new thread?

[want-a-be]

The sheet on that Accel distributor says it is preset with 12 degrees of mech advance. Put that one in and set it for 16 degrees, and end up with 38. Should be fine.

Jake,

I think your math is a bit off there bud,....With 12° of mechanical advance wouldn't he need to put his initial at 26° to get the desired 38° total?

Just thinking out loud. You know me,...I love a lot of initial. 26° initial all in at 38° sounds just right to me.

Don

[lun40119]

You are right...............my bad, even better though..........set it at 24 degrees at an idle and 36 total. Sorry it was early :) I may have still had a buzz. I had a couple of Nates Kiddie Cocktails last night.

[chevman24]

Well guys i think a tear down is in order. I simply cannot get this thing to idle properly. It idled better with a cracked OEM head. There is no way this thing should shudder at idle like it does.Valves are set properly, would too short of pushrods cause anything like that though? But im positive they are good to go.
I will post pis of my round camshaft here if thats the case.:mad:

[chevman24]

Well i tore it down. I removed all of the lifters and all of them were in perfect condition. I could still see the pattern that was put in there by Lunati. Seems like a waste but in the end at least i know i didnt burn up the cam. I got kind of worried when i took a closer look at the oil filter I used for break in. It was collapsed. I have a aftermarket filter mount that forces all of the oil through the filter. Maybe thats what caused it. Back together it goes.:)

[want-a-be]

Sounds like good news then, as far as the long block that is.

Don

[chevman24]

I do have a catalytic converter on this car. Perhaps its clogged?

[chevman24]

Update. I finished re-install. I set timing at 14 (degrees mechanical) and it fired right up. I did fine tuning on the carb and it now runs ten times better and the shudder/misfire is gone. I think i mixed up the 2 and 4 plug wires on that one even though my MSD wires are clearly marked.:o Now its time to set timing and drive/flog the thing and see how it does+ make sure the A/F ratio is right. I need to adjust my vacuum advance and that will be all for this season. We'll see how it goes for the next couple weeks when i begin to trust the car again. Then its on to the next piece of the puzzle. The transmission, thats alot easier though.

[ComaxRacing]

Wholly crap:eek: you don't mess around. I read the post when you said the motor was coming out and then when you said you had it fired and running, the date stamps put that at around 4 days.
Sounds like you have done it a few times.

Glad to hear its running better.


Corey

[chevman24]

My experience is limited, but yes i have pulled a motor or two, installed heads and set valve timing a few times in my life. Perhaps i just hurry through things? Nah. Thanks for the complement.:cool:

[Awesome Bill]

The sheet on that Accel distributor says it is preset with 12 degrees of mech advance. Put that one in and set it for 16 degrees, and end up with 38. Should be fine.

Hey Jake, 12 and 16 equal 28, he will need 38-42 with this low compression unit he has. His stock hei will work fine with the vacuum advance hooked up. If he is a real 8.5:1 and runs high test, his total timing will be around 42° if not 44. So I would let the 18° alone and let him run it. If it runs good, put 2° more timing on it and run it again. Until the et or mph stop gaining, keep giving it to her.

[Awesome Bill]

Jake,

I think your math is a bit off there bud,....With 12° of mechanical advance wouldn't he need to put his initial at 26° to get the desired 38° total?

Just thinking out loud. You know me,...I love a lot of initial. 26° initial all in at 38° sounds just right to me.

Don

should of read a little further on the math. I like the 26-30 initial with 38-42 total on something like this also, will idle very nicely.

[chevman24]

Update: Piston Rings are FUBAR/ toast!! The plugs are getting oil fouled:( Looks like ill be getting a 383 short-block, seems the most reasonable at this time. I just hope my cam will work with it.:confused:

[ComaxRacing]

Did you leak it down to find the bad rings or tear it down?

Corey

[pschnick]

i definately agree to do a leakdown if you haven't, could have intake gaskets out sucking oil for all you know!!

[chevman24]

The engine is a 71 block, never rebuilt with 100k miles on it. It ran perfect when i put the engine in the car, thats why I didnt consider rebuilding since it was out. When i did the compression test it hit 90 ft lbs and leaked down right instantly. I could hear the air venting into the crankcase. Im going to drive the car anyways after i get AF ratio figured out. Im positive the intake gaskets are good vacuum is fine.

[lun40119]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[chevman24]

I was messing with it yesterday and It seems to run fine now though. :confused:
Ive been looking at 383's, Dart 415's and 427 SBC's. I looked at the 415 and noticed that the 427 was only 10 bucks more than the 415. But with 2k you can have a 383 with a late model block. Both the 415 and the 427 use the Little M block.:cool: But are twice the price for obvious reasons.:rolleyes:
http://www.competitionproducts.com/Dart-Pro-Assembled-Chev-SB-Short-Block-415ci/productinfo/DRT95121415/
http://www.competitionproducts.com/Dart-Pro-Assembled-Chev-SB-Short-Block-427ci/productinfo/DRT95122427/

[lun40119]

If you want a new short block don't buy a cookie cutter like that..............if you are serious about a new short block let me know. You can get the same parts at a fraction of the cost, and help keep your local machine shop in business..............................

[chevman24]

If you want a new short block don't buy a cookie cutter like that..............if you are serious about a new short block let me know. You can get the same parts at a fraction of the cost, and help keep your local machine shop in business..............................

That sounds good and yes i am serious about getting a new short block(not today though:rolleyes:). Im not looking to reach your power levels though:cool:. I was hopng to get a new transmission before a new engine. My fingers are crossed about the piston rings(it fires right up:confused:)but it looks like i have oil on the spark plugs on all but three cylinders. Have to get out and drive the thing. Other issues keep coming up preventing that, like having slop in the steering box!:( Thats what you get with a 22+ year old car.
When it comes down to it what would be better just a SHP block or a Little M. Is it worth the extra 800 or so.

[lun40119]

You would be fine with a shp block. I can think of a couple different machine shops locally that could do a pretty good job on a shortblock for what you are looking to do. Let me know when you are serious, Ill pm you some numbers to call. Take care.

[Awesome Bill]

Update: Piston Rings are FUBAR/ toast!! The plugs are getting oil fouled:( Looks like ill be getting a 383 short-block, seems the most reasonable at this time. I just hope my cam will work with it.:confused:

I would not be so quick to shoot the cow here. Here are a couple things to do and this will pretty much tell you if your bottom end is toast. Open 1 valve cover breather hole up and disconnect the pcv or any other crank case ventilation you have off and plug it. With a hot engine, put it in gear and see if it puffs like a locomotive or if a steady stream of smoke poors out. If nothing comes out, your bottom end is good. Leak test mean nothing if there is no blowby! How do you even know your leak test is being done correctly?

Oil on plugs comes from Valve Guide clearance issues! It runs down the intake or exhaust valve and gets on to the plug, Mostly the intake valve while running. This normally will produce a good puff of smoke on a start and clean right up. A bad exhaust guide will allow oil to only drip once the engine is off. This will also produce a good puff of oil if it is severe! A intake gasket could be sucking oil from the bottom also. Check it out before you go all the way.

If you need a good short block, give me a ring, we are very competitive and you get what you need, not what I have!

[chevman24]

I would not be so quick to shoot the cow here. Here are a couple things to do and this will pretty much tell you if your bottom end is toast. Open 1 valve cover breather hole up and disconnect the pcv or any other crank case ventilation you have off and plug it. With a hot engine, put it in gear and see if it puffs like a locomotive or if a steady stream of smoke poors out. If nothing comes out, your bottom end is good. Leak test mean nothing if there is no blowby! How do you even know your leak test is being done correctly?

I actually did this by accident one day. I forgot to reconnect the PVC. A steady stream of smoke comes out.:(
The PCV was open though so ill block it when i can start it again.

[Awesome Bill]

I actually did this by accident one day. I forgot to reconnect the PVC. A steady stream of smoke comes out.:(
The PCV was open though so ill block it when i can start it again.

that is nothing but compression from every cylinder going right by the rings! Your engine is hurt for sure. Will still run but alot of your power is going in the crank case and out your breathers and pcv system.

[chevman24]

that is nothing but compression from every cylinder going right by the rings! Your engine is hurt for sure. Will still run but alot of your power is going in the crank case and out your breathers and pcv system.

Thats what i figured. It smokes quite a bit, but if i dont cover the pvc it pumps out like a steam locomotive. What happened was i forgot to reconnect the PVC. It idled high because it had a vacuum leak. I then noticed a burning oil smell. The crankcase pressure was pushing oil out through the dipstick tube and on the headers. :(
Its an old engine that had been in my old pick-up and had been sitting a while. At least i dont have tons of cash invested into it. But i already have a top end kit for a new engine!!:D

[Awesome Bill]

Thats what i figured. It smokes quite a bit, but if i dont cover the pvc it pumps out like a steam locomotive. What happened was i forgot to reconnect the PVC. It idled high because it had a vacuum leak. I then noticed a burning oil smell. The crankcase pressure was pushing oil out through the dipstick tube and on the headers. :(
Its an old engine that had been in my old pick-up and had been sitting a while. At least i dont have tons of cash invested into it. But i already have a top end kit for a new engine!!:D

A good short block assembled would be nice for your new top half, shoot me over some idea of how fast you want to go with some idea on how you want this thing to run on the street. Cam changes everything up from HP to TORQUE. You can't fix the engine you have unless it comes apart.

[chevman24]

I re-read one of the other posts and i skipped the part where you siad to have the transmission in gear. Well i tried it with the car in gear. This thing definately puffs bad, looks like smoke out of a chimney that puffs alot with each compression stroke. I will probobly make a project of it this winter. Which is only a short period of time away.:D

[WeDyno]

Changing the main jets should have very little affect on your idle problem. A vacuum secondary 625 cfm carb and that cam could be a challenge to tune. First, make sure both the primary and secondary throttle plates are open the same amount, I'll bet they aren't. Once these are both open the same amount go back and try adjusting the idle mixture screws again. Ideally they should be open about 1.5 turns. If these screws wind up being way out or way in at best idle, the idle air bleed size might need to be changed. The idle mixture screws in the metering block control a mixture of air and fuel, not just fuel. The "air" part of this mix comes from the idle air bleeds (the ones on the outside) the "fuel" part of this mix comes through a jet in the metering block.

I am assuming you are running centrifugal advance in your distributor? If you are, advance the timing to 30 degrees while the motor is idling (don't speed it up!) then readjust your carburetor. If this improves your idle quality you will need to recurve your distributor so you have more timing at idle. Most new distributors come with the parts necessary to do this.

[chevman24]

Changing the main jets should have very little affect on your idle problem. A vacuum secondary 625 cfm carb and that cam could be a challenge to tune. First, make sure both the primary and secondary throttle plates are open the same amount, I'll bet they aren't. Once these are both open the same amount go back and try adjusting the idle mixture screws again. Ideally they should be open about 1.5 turns. If these screws wind up being way out or way in at best idle, the idle air bleed size might need to be changed. The idle mixture screws in the metering block control a mixture of air and fuel, not just fuel. The "air" part of this mix comes from the idle air bleeds (the ones on the outside) the "fuel" part of this mix comes through a jet in the metering block.

I am assuming you are running centrifugal advance in your distributor? If you are, advance the timing to 30 degrees while the motor is idling (don't speed it up!) then readjust your carburetor. If this improves your idle quality you will need to recurve your distributor so you have more timing at idle. Most new distributors come with the parts necessary to do this.

Thanks for the information. Ive taken my carb off the engine and checked to see if the butterflies were open the same amount, and they are. But thats not the issue. The fact is my rings are toast. I shouldnt have any problems tuning this engine. ;)

[kcaraway]

ummm nooooooo when your eyes are burning its running rich adjust idle air bleed screw drop the idle as low as u can and it still run then turn idle bleed screw in just before it chokes out should make it closed then screw it out counting revolutions when you get out bout 2 turns go to next one after you do that to each idle screw your case prob only got two go bak and turn them out quarter turn at a time until the burn goes away or strong odor of fuel from exaust give it a couple min between quarter adj.

[chevman24]

Im positive the rings are screwed. The carb is set right, each idle feed screw is 1 1/2 turns out and its fouling plugs.
I have an air/fuel meter.

[want-a-be]

is this a 2 or 4 corner idle carb?

Don

[chevman24]

is this a 2 or 4 corner idle carb?

Don

4 corner Idle. All of the Idle adjust screws are 1 1/2 turns out. All but three spark plugs turn black and oily looking in a short period of time.

[want-a-be]

4 corner Idle. All of the Idle adjust screws are 1 1/2 turns out. All but three spark plugs turn black and oily looking in a short period of time.

Most, but not all, 4 corner idle carbs need to start off at 3/4 turns out. This may be part or all of your problem.

Don

[chevman24]

Most, but not all, 4 corner idle carbs need to start off at 3/4 turns out. This may be part or all of your problem.

Don

The engine wont stay running unless the Idle air screws are out 1 1/2 turns. It has to idle at 850 or it idles badly

[Awesome Bill]

ummm nooooooo when your eyes are burning its running rich adjust idle air bleed screw drop the idle as low as u can and it still run then turn idle bleed screw in just before it chokes out should make it closed then screw it out counting revolutions when you get out bout 2 turns go to next one after you do that to each idle screw your case prob only got two go bak and turn them out quarter turn at a time until the burn goes away or strong odor of fuel from exaust give it a couple min between quarter adj.

any time your eyes burn means the engine is very lean on an idle and not burning what little fuel is in the combustion chamber. This produces hydrocarbons and CO's that will kill you. pulling the idle jets out only makes the engine richer. Those are fuel circuits, not air. 2 turns out and it runs good only means you are truley lean. The carb when properly tuned will be about 1 turn out on all four corners.

Running 2 turns out from stumble will be way to rich. Easy way to tune is just bottom out all the idle jets and back them out 1 turn. Pump the gas 1 time cold, if the engine runs without any playing with the gas pedal, the fuel mixture is correct. If it won't run, pull the idle jets, all four ¼ turn at a time until a cold engine will idle. If it will not idle @ 2 turns out, you can go up in the main jet until it does. If you have removable air bleeds, pull .005 out of each idle circuit until it idles cold!

Also, always make sure the fuel level is about 2 flats high of the fuel on the site plug!

[Awesome Bill]

The engine wont stay running unless the Idle air screws are out 1 1/2 turns. It has to idle at 850 or it idles badly

total the timing out @ 36-38° and see how it idles. Most the time this helps, usually the base timing is around 16-18° with 20° worth of mechanical This will not put the rings back right!

[chevman24]

total the timing out @ 36-38° and see how it idles. Most the time this helps, usually the base timing is around 16-18° with 20° worth of mechanical This will not put the rings back right!

Thats what i have been alluding too. Ive adjusted the carb and changed the jetting in so many ways its not even funny. I shouldnt have to change jets, adjust timing this much just to get it to idle correctly. I adjust the carb so it runs smoothly when hot, but i try to start it when its cool but it wont start unless the idle screws are out 1 1/2 turns. Which leads me to believe its mechanical, meaning the rings are not sealing properly. It drives decent in the upper rpm range but it wont idle right.

[lun40119]

Bill, with that much timing and that little cam, isn't that thing going to get really nervous, and want to quit in gear?

[kcaraway]

rich is too much fuel and lean is too much air right?

[chevman24]

rich is too much fuel and lean is too much air right?

Yep

[Awesome Bill]

you can get to the point where the engine will have to much initial and it will shake all around and act stupid and most likely when the mechanical comes in will detonate. But, with low compression engines, 12-20 initial timing will work as long as the total stays under the limit to light off the fuel @ peak cylinder pressure. To much detonate, to late power out the exhaust. Most times with street engines, they like 20-22° initial and some times more to idle really nice. 9-10-1 compression with pump gas will not detonate even with 40°. Ofcourse, you always have to be careful. Finding the sweet spot changes when you do other things like exhaust, jettitng, spacers etc. Still, 36-38° with 10:1 compression and pump gas is near perfect.

[lun40119]

total the timing out @ 36-38° and see how it idles. Most the time this helps, usually the base timing is around 16-18° with 20° worth of mechanical This will not put the rings back right!

You are right, I misread your post. I thought you were talking about locking it out at 38 and letting it idle there. He should be fine at 20degrees at an idle. I think that that carb has been messed with so much, and he is chasing his tail around. This engine should be a cake walk to tune. If everything is correct. This stuff isn't rocket science. Usually just means making the engine happy.

[chevman24]

You are right, I misread your post. I thought you were talking about locking it out at 38 and letting it idle there. He should be fine at 20degrees at an idle. I think that that carb has been messed with so much, and he is chasing his tail around. This engine should be a cake walk to tune. If everything is correct. This stuff isn't rocket science. Usually just means making the engine happy.

The Carb isnt that far off from the base settings. The stock Jetting( main(70) and secondarys(78) are the same , transfer slots are the same. Ive only gone larger in jet size though and the power valve was only removed when i cleaned the Carb. The only thing changed at this point are the idle air settings (screws are out 1 1/2 turns). Like you siad though the engine should be a cake walk to tune.

[kcaraway]

jets havent been used yet til you take it down the road and whoever tellin you its lean is full of shit burning eyes is coming from unburned fuel im thinking u should try a diff carb that u know works properly or try yours on diff eng

[chevman24]

Im getting a wideband A/F monitor soon. That will tell me what i need to know. Ill post those results then.
No i dont have another usable carb. It had a Road Demon Jr 625 and it ran perfectly fine, now it has a Road Demon 625, so its basically the same carb. The difference is the Road Demon is a dual feed unit with larger bowls, and the JR is a single feed designed for stock engines.

[want-a-be]

kcaraway,

I'm not sure as to which comments I've made on this thread that confuses you. Visit our conversation on my profile. If you would like to direct my to the comments you are referring to I'd be more then happy to explain myself.

I will say that after looking over some of my posts here that I now understand why your 1 1/2 turns out on the idle screws is correct. Demon carbs are set up this way. Most Holley carbs aren't.

Don

[chevman24]

The explaination for the heavy feul(burning of the eyes) smell was that there wasnt enough fuel in the chamber to fire correctly, causing the unburnt fuel to get pushed into the exhaust. Subsequently causing it to evaporate in the exhaust.

[want-a-be]

The explaination for the heavy feul(burning of the eyes) smell was that there wasnt enough fuel in the chamber to fire correctly, causing the unburnt fuel to get pushed into the exhaust. Subsequently causing it to evaporate in the exhaust.

I said that??!?! Are you sure it wasn't someone else? I'll take the time to look over all my posts in this thread and see if it was me or not. It will take some time with my 28k isp though, but I will revisit my posts.

Don

I think you'll find that it wasn't me though.

[want-a-be]

Found it, wasn't me. Do a little research, look at the name not the avitar.
Don

[chevman24]

I said that??!?! Are you sure it wasn't someone else? I'll take the time to look over all my posts in this thread and see if it was me or not. It will take some time with my 28k isp though, but I will revisit my posts.

Don

I think you'll find that it wasn't me though.

I know it wasnt you. Thats how I understand it based on what Bill was saying

[want-a-be]

Well,...kcaraway was on my profile asking about it. That's why I was responding.

Don

[Awesome Bill]

kcaraway,

I'm not sure as to which comments I've made on this thread that confuses you. Visit our conversation on my profile. If you would like to direct my to the comments you are referring to I'd be more then happy to explain myself.

I will say that after looking over some of my posts here that I now understand why your 1 1/2 turns out on the idle screws is correct. Demon carbs are set up this way. Most Holley carbs aren't.

Don

that is silly to say Demon cars and Holley carbs are set up. An engine and its build will determine what idle fuel mixture is needed. Put big heads and carb on it and you will need 3 turns out. Put small heads and a dual plane with a 268 comp and you'll have to use 1 turn out. The only thing everyone says if your out more than 2 turns, your lean on the idle circuit! If your in all the way, your rich!

[chevman24]

I decided to fire her up again and it started ticking. I reset the valves no change. While in there i noticed on the intake valves the pushrods were rubbing the heads. So i tore the valve train back apart and moved the guideplates around so there was plenty of clearance between the pushrods and the heads. While in there i noticed i didnt put any sealant on the intake studs(:rolleyes: ROOKIES). Maybe that is part of the problem as there was oil on the threads and there appeared to be oil in the intake runner. Ill learn to double check stuff yet!!:rolleyes:

[lun40119]

As long as you learn from your mistakes, that is called experience. If you don't learn from them........put the wrench down and step away from the mule. ;)

[lun40119]

When I get the turd back, you'll have to stop in the shop and check it out over a cold Miller lite. That way you can see it first hand. :)

[Awesome Bill]

I decided to fire her up again and it started ticking. I reset the valves no change. While in there i noticed on the intake valves the pushrods were rubbing the heads. So i tore the valve train back apart and moved the guideplates around so there was plenty of clearance between the pushrods and the heads. While in there i noticed i didnt put any sealant on the intake studs(:rolleyes: ROOKIES). Maybe that is part of the problem as there was oil on the threads and there appeared to be oil in the intake runner. Ill learn to double check stuff yet!!:rolleyes:

I see we are still working on this! Yeah, it was me who posted the lean rich burn your eyes stuff. The oil, even if you could get enough of it threw the threads would not cause this. It would cause it to maybe blow a little blue smoke, not enough to burn your eyes on and idle.

You also have to remember, you really can't tell if an engine is rich or lean just by the idle circuit. It could be very rich or very lean but the overall A/F ratio be dead on. Your only using 1 circuit designed just for idle and light cruising. WOThrottle is a whole different story. Its good to go over and check things and find the rocker stuff. I see pushrods that have rubbed for long times and never hurt anything. Depends on just how bad they are rubbing. Either way, seal the Intake rocker studs with the thread sealer and get that out of the way. When you get a chance to blast that thing, you may see a totally different engine.

Don't worry about the cold ones till your done. That is how you make mistakes to start with and also usually gets you into these types of problems.

[chevman24]

I've never had an aftermarket head beforehand so there is definatly going to be a learning curve. I just decided I was going to tear it down and see where the ticking was coming from. I wasn't expecting fresh engine in a can. LOL!!!:D

[chevman24]

When I get the turd back, you'll have to stop in the shop and check it out over a cold Miller lite. That way you can see it first hand. :)

Let me know!!! Id like to see how high that bar is.

[Awesome Bill]

I've never had an aftermarket head beforehand so there is definatly going to be a learning curve. I just decided I was going to tear it down and see where the ticking was coming from. I wasn't expecting fresh engine in a can. LOL!!!:D

The aftermarket head, especially if it is larger just makes the carb leaner on the bottom side. More volume, the worst the signal is below the carb. Smaller the head, we would not be talking burning your eyes, you would love the smell of the exhaust. When you can smell the race fuel and not burn your eyes, your idle circuit is decent. I have found if it starts cold and will idle around 800-1000 rpm cold, your idle mixture is near perfect. You can keep taking the air bleeds in until it stumlbes or won't run cold then come back out ½ a turn. This will put you dead on. Now, WOT, wide open throttle, is a different section of the carb. It could still be horrible rich or lean. My guess lean. Either way, find your tick and take care of it. Check all valve guides if you can't find it. I have seen exhaust guides so bad, the exhaust cooks the oil on the exhaust valve spring. With stock automotive machine work, we see a lot.

[lun40119]

Let me know!!! Id like to see how high that bar is.

I will.................take care fella. Don't mind the spam. ;)

[chevman24]

Well..... fired it up tonight. The ticking is gone thus far, so it seems the pushrods rubbing the heads was where the problem was (It ticked wether cold or hot).:D

[chevman24]

Guess Im bringing this back from the dead. I was just randomly thinking while doing some body work on the car and i thought maybe the pushrods were too long. The pattern the rockers make on the valve tip is wide, but centered on the valve.
Any thoughts? questions?

[lun40119]

Pretty hard to make them perfect with the stud stuff.......try .050 longer and see what the pattern looks like.......if it is narrower, than run it.

[chevman24]

Pretty hard to make them perfect with the stud stuff.......try .050 longer and see what the pattern looks like.......if it is narrower, than run it.

I was thinking they were long. Ill have to search the inet some more. I remember you showing me a pic of the pattern that your shaft rockers made. My pattern is approx(probobly a little smaller) an 1/8inch or 1/16 wide. Where yours looks like a needle was rolling on the exact center of the valve tip.

[ComaxRacing]

I was thinking they were long. Ill have to search the inet some more. I remember you showing me a pic of the pattern that your shaft rockers made. My pattern is approx(probobly a little smaller) an 1/8inch or 1/16 wide. Where yours looks like a needle was rolling on the exact center of the valve tip.

I've been lurking around this post for a bit and I will say that if you are at 1/16" its going to be fine. When I did my shafts I couldn't get a pattern that looked like Jakes either. I played with pushrod lenghts for days and settled on a pattern that was around 1/16" maybe a hair more. IMO as long as its centered on the valve tip and around that 1/16" it fine.

Corey

[chevman24]

I've been lurking around this post for a bit and I will say that if you are at 1/16" its going to be fine. When I did my shafts I couldn't get a pattern that looked like Jakes either. I played with pushrod lenghts for days and settled on a pattern that was around 1/16" maybe a hair more. IMO as long as its centered on the valve tip and around that 1/16" it fine.

Corey

ok its probobly as good as its going to get then. Just throwing out some random idea. I decided to fix some rust issues on the car before i get a new engine built. Getting a miller welder fairly soon.:D

[lun40119]

Only bummer with that guys is your rocking the valve tip back and forth. Wears the guides and scrubs off lift. I didn't set up my new stuff........Tom did, and he said with .866 lift he got mine down to around .060. It has to do with the trunnion height. Corey, with the shafts you should be able to set the stand height, and just fill in the space with pushrod. The length of the pushrod shouldn't matter.

chevman24, isn't your cam hydraulic??? Those really are a bummer. We used a pump primer to keep the lifter pumped up when we did my buddies 502.

One other thing to note is with big lift the rocker has no choice but to travel across the tip. That is why they offer different pivot lengths. Mine is a 1.65 pivot length as opposed to a stock SBC.

[chevman24]

Only bummer with that guys is your rocking the valve tip back and forth. Wears the guides and scrubs off lift. I didn't set up my new stuff........Tom did, and he said with .866 lift he got mine down to around .060. It has to do with the trunnion height. Corey, with the shafts you should be able to set the stand height, and just fill in the space with pushrod. The length of the pushrod shouldn't matter.

chevman24, isn't your cam hydraulic??? Those really are a bummer. We used a pump primer to keep the lifter pumped up when we did my buddies 502.

One other thing to note is with big lift the rocker has no choice but to travel across the tip. That is why they offer different pivot lengths. Mine is a 1.65 pivot length as opposed to a stock SBC.

Yes my cam is hydraulic but I measured pushrod length with a solid lifter. Thats what i was told to do on other forums.
Im fairly certain that the salesman where i bought the heads from, as well as the info that came with the heads, siad that with the hydraulic roller springs installed i would need .100 over stock length pushrod(but that may have been for the valves). Ill need to go get my spec sheet to be certain.

[lun40119]

Dat works too...........buddies 502 is a HR with Morel High rpm lifters...............I don't have BBC solids at the house. ;)

[chevman24]

Its pretty cold outside to get Ice Cream isnt it?:D:cool:
The solid lifters were about 2 bucks from Advance auto, i suppose they dont sell Hydraulic rollers for BBC individually.

[lun40119]

Its pretty cold outside to get Ice Cream isnt it?:D:cool:

I don't actually get it until I give Jeff his whippin!!!!

[chevman24]

I don't actually get it until I give Jeff his whippin!!!!

Oh that must be an inside joke then.

[lun40119]

Kind of............basically just shit talkin. Plan to meet up with him on Drag Week. It is kind of the point of my build. That is why I am having a trailer hitch reciever made for the car out of chromoly. ;) Going to pull a trailer for the tools and slicks.

[ComaxRacing]

Only bummer with that guys is your rocking the valve tip back and forth. Wears the guides and scrubs off lift. I didn't set up my new stuff........Tom did, and he said with .866 lift he got mine down to around .060. It has to do with the trunnion height. Corey, with the shafts you should be able to set the stand height, and just fill in the space with pushrod. The length of the pushrod shouldn't matter.


Ya, I shimed the stupid stands up and down 8 ways from sunday and it would get to around the 1/16 mark then get bigger. Would remove shims and it would get to the 1/16 mark and get bigger. Just seemed that for some reason 1/16 was about it with maintaining the the mark in the center of the stem. I always wondered if it was the 1.8 rockers because they have a little bit more sweep than say a 1.7 plus the .900 lift. :D

Wait a minute I just thought of something 1/16 is .0625" so I guess I'm right there.

Corey

[lun40119]

Good point Corey.............for some reason I put the .125 deal in my head for both of you. I wouldn't worry bout .060 with a .900 lift cam. ;)

[lun40119]

Ya, I shimed the stupid stands up and down 8 ways from sunday and it would get to around the 1/16 mark then get bigger. Would remove shims and it would get to the 1/16 mark and get bigger. Just seemed that for some reason 1/16 was about it with maintaining the the mark in the center of the stem. I always wondered if it was the 1.8 rockers because they have a little bit more sweep than say a 1.7 plus the .900 lift. :D

Wait a minute I just thought of something 1/16 is .0625" so I guess I'm right there.

Corey

Corey I fixed your quote for you. You forgot the close quote.

[ComaxRacing]

Thanks, I was in the middle of typing when we had a crisis at the shop here so I got side tracked.

Corey