180 or 200?

[Nove383]

I have a 69 nova with a 383. It is a street/strip car. Its around 9.8 compression, cam is 227/233 @ 50 and 489/504 in lift, performer rpm intake and 770 cfm holley. Right now i am running someported fuelies on it. I am currently looking at getting the dart pro 1 platinum heads but not sure to go with the 180 or 200 cc intake runners. Any advice would be appreciated.

[want-a-be]

Go with the 200s you'll like them. There are some 355s on the Board that are running the 215s and are pretty happy with them. I wouldn't run anything less then 200 on a performance engine.

Later, Don :cool:

[Awesome Bill]

How much does your car weigh, what torque converter do you plan to use, what gear ratio is in the car, do you have power brakes, p/steering, what fuel pump do you have and is it a stock 5/16 or 3/8 fuel line from front to back. It does make a difference.

If you plan to keep this a street car with a mild camshaft and a 12" torque converter with maximum 2500 stall speed and a relative mild gear ratio, use the 180 cc heads with the 2.02/1.60 valve. You will be much happier with this combination and will make a little over 400 real hp with the combination you have. I take it you have a street avenger 770? this is about 160 cfm too big for your engine @ 5500 rpm. Your engine will not make any hp over 5500 and even if it will go there. So you should of used a little smaller cfm carb and you will see a ton of power with a smaller carb. Even @ 100% v/e, you won't get the performance you would with a smaller cfm carb in the power range you will operate.

But this all can change because we do not know your whole combination. The 180 cc heads willl be plenty, even for a 406 if there is one in the future. Ported correctly, you could even support more in" with those heads. Still, I don't know what your expectations are and how far you plan on going. Be careful with big heads, it will not like it. If you could shed a little more light on the combination, that would help. But your combination would run very well with the smaller head. And remember, smaller head does not mean less by any means, it means in most cases more power where you need it.

[Dart Vader]

I ran this question by several of our techs and got some feedback.

Tech 1 said:
The engine is larger, cam could be bigger, but still the larger stroke with the 4.030 bore will be able to use the larger 200 runners. There are some more questions I would like to ask, like converter for the trans, gear ratio, header size, but none the less I would use the 200 heads..

Tech 2 said:
Use the 180cc (He was in a hurry!)

Tech 3 said:
I’d do 200cc pro 1’s with 1.437” springs (as long as it is not a sld roller) and bring the cam duration at .050” up into the 240ish range and the lift into the .500 -.550ish range, 1 ¾” headers use that same intake and vacuum secondary carb.


Some info to consider anyway, sorry I didn't have the chance to talk to the dissenting opinion more on his choice...

[Nove383]

Thanks for all the help. I have some more info you said would be helpful to know.I am running stock 5/16 fuel lines and stock mech. fuel pumpfor now. The car weighs roughly 3300 lbs, I will be putting 3.73 gears in it soon. For a tranny i am running a TH 350 with a 2400 stall. My headers ar3 1 5/8 long tubes. Hope this helps thanks again

I was also wondering what anyone would reccomend for rocker ratios. I would like to keep the cam i have in there for now and didnt know if going to a 1.6 intake 1.5 exhaust would get me some more power? I am using a mallory HEI distributor right now and also wanted to know if anyone would reccomend getting an MSD box would help?

[lun40119]

Response to the question about the MSD box...........What about the Mallory Hyfire VI. Sure there marketing isn't as good as MSD's but I believe it is the better system. I use the Hyfire VI in my street driven car and it has performed flawlessly. Actually funny these two things are together. I run a larger head on a smaller motor...........I love them........every aspect of them. I tested them back to back on an engine dyno. All else equal the larger head outperformed the smaller head. More torque and HP from 3500-7500, however they did move the Hp peak up around 7000. One issue was idle vacuum, so I gave the engine more lead at initial and recurved the Unitlite. (A guy could do that after a sixer)and closed the plates to bring the vacuum up to a more reasonable number. Really helped the idle quality. I am not saying that the bigger heads are right for your combo.......I don't know enough about cylinder heads to offer an opinion. All I can do is tell you I like mine. I am running 260ish duration at .050 and over .600 lift on a little pipsqueek 12.3:1 engine.

Moreover...........Compare the two ignition systems. Take for instance the Mallory Hyfire 6AL vs the MSD 6AL.......Mallory Digital/MSD Analog..........Primary Output Mallory 520V/MSD 470V.............Spark Energy Mallory 135mj/MSD 110 mj Current Draw Mallory .6 amp per 1000rpm/ MSD 1 amp per 1000rpm Mallory adjustable revlimiter..........MSD those little modules that you can lose.....The list goes on and on. Just becuase you see the MSD Mags on every single top fueler on sunday doesn't necessarily mean that they are the best.

JMO Im just a nobody tryin to do it myself.

[Awesome Bill]

You have some problems with your fuel system as of right now and most likely is your govenor right now. A 5/16 od fuel line is at best ¼" id. This fuel line will only support 250-300 hp at the very max. It would not matter what head you put on it, it will not matter at all with that fuel line and your whimpy stock pump. The end of first gear going to second you will have about 1-3lbs of fuel pressure at best. We have tried this, it does not work. So before you buy these bigger than needed 200 cc heads that will easily put your combination @ 7000 rpm with a valve train nothing like what you have, and then the car runs slower than the fuelie double humps, change out the fuel system.

I would remove the tank and have a Competition Engineerring Fuel sump installed in the tank and plumb it to the front with a Red Blue Black Holley or Pro Comp Fuel pump with a #10 from the sump to the pump, then #8 to the regulator and then #6 to the carb. You can also run a good mechanical fuel pump also and it will work fine. This fuel system will support 600-700 hp. Overkill?, yes but you will spend the same with samller line so install the larger line. You will have some room for some NOS maybe.

To use the 200 cc heads, with the 2.05, now getting very heavy, intake valve, your hydraulic valve train will fall on its face @ 5000 rpm. This means your heads will do no better than the fuelie heads. I will also be bad for the press!. So being your combo is stock, spend the money on the fuel system first then install the heads. I do agree the Mallory is way better but their distributor is lacking where the box does very well. You can use the stock HEI with a external coil and run just as good and save some well needed bucks. The adjustable timing curve is nice to have so either will work if you want to spend for an upgrade. You will pick nothing up in HP with either MSD or Mallory upgrade unless you have a very poor quality module, coil, cap, rotor, or wires. Your rpm range for where your power will be will not exceed 5000 rpm with either head you choose, so why put a cylinder head on that only works and moves the whole power curve up where you do not want. need, or even make the power for your heavy street fighter.

After installing your professional fuel line, put the 180 heads on and then take her to the track. You will see some very good #'s. Then if someone wants to sell you the 200 cc heads over the 180 heads, just ask them if they will give you your money back if they do not run .010 faster. If they will, take them and be ready to put your 180s back on after 1 full day of dissapointment with your combination as you have it. Even if you want to upgrade later to roller camshaft, different intake, etc. the 180 head will run much faster from point A to B with your application as you are running it and even with some upgrades. The 180 heads have you very well covered for any future upgrades and more. Do not fall into the old cliche: some is better so more must be great! Don't work like that unless you spend the bucks to upgrade a ton of stuff to make your engine use the extra 20 ccs of volume with a dual plane, hyd cam, stock converter, high gear, heavy car. This is just my opinon and it will hold water if you make anyone give you your money back if you install and then don't do what they say. NO ONE will sell you a head if they have to refund your money if it does not work.

I am not telling you this to have a big debate over who is right or wrong, I already know what will happen. I am just trying to give you some solid proven information that we have done in our install facility ourselves many times. We take cars to the track all the time. We don't race dyno's. Yet, we do have one just for comfirmation and tuning issues. When the car is at the track and you get the time slip, you will have your proof. Both heads will work, and could work better if you want to get hung up of whos right. But your combination as you want it and have the parts you have will work very well with what I have said. Hope this helps.

[Dart Vader]

I am not telling you this to have a big debate over who is right or wrong, I already know what will happen. I am just trying to give you some solid proven information that we have done in our install facility ourselves many times. We take cars to the track all the time.

I have to disagree with this position.
There are plenty of people with opinions on this matter, and all of them make some interesting points. I don't think that anyone can simply claim to "know what will happen". With plenty of experience one could have a pretty good idea, but several of the people with dissenting opinions here have plenty of experience. Lots of people around here have run engines on the dyno countless times and taken cars to the track plenty of times.

The choice is obviously a close one with positives and negatives on both sides that must be weighed. That's why there is a debate about the matter at all.

[want-a-be]

Bill is very correct about your fuel delivery system. I once I stepped a guy up 150 hp for his street stock car for circle track. I questioned his fuel system and he assured me that it would work ok. He went out twice and leaned out enough to "only " suck the valves in enough for them to not seal. The second time I told him that we were dynoing his combo before it left my shop. We used our fuel system for the initial tuning and pulls. Did fine. Then we hooked his fuel pump up and the fuel numbers went so lean we aborted the run. Fuel pressure went to below 3 psi also and the HP fell way off. Put a good holley pump on and all came back. This was a stock mounted pump.

My vote for the runner size would be the 200s. I've had good luck with that runner size. The 1.6 rockers will put you closer to .521 /.537 lift. As long as everything clears you ought to be ok with that. This a hyd. or solid cam? Might consider an open plenum intake. If not...might stick to the 180s after all then. What max rpm are you wanting to turn? Make sure you don't decrease compression any at all. Might even want to bump it to 10.5 or even 11-1. With the aluminum heads you can get away with a bit more.

Need any help feel free to ask.

Later, Don :cool:

[Nove383]

thanks to everyone for all the help so far. I know my fuel system does need some attention, i just have not gotten to it yet. I am going to change it to a 3/8 line and performance fuel pump( would you recommend 80 or 110 gph) . My combo seems to be in the middle of both heads. I plan on keeping the engine the way it is now because my pockets arent too deep at the moment. So with the engine the way it is(after i upgrade fuel system) do you think the 180 or 200 cc heads would be a safer bet. This is mostly a street car and i am looking for lots of torque. I will bring it to the track from time to time, but am mostly looking for the max power i can get under 6500 rpm. My goal is to reach around 400 hp to the wheels and run in the 12's at the track. Is this a realistic goal for my car? Also would you reccomend 3.55 or 3.73 for the rear . I have not swapped gears yet and have gotton advice both ways from people, still trying to decide. Any advice would be much appreciated thanks again

[lun40119]

I do agree the Mallory is way better but their distributor is lacking where the box does very well. You can use the stock HEI with a external coil and run just as good and save some well needed bucks. The adjustable timing curve is nice to have so either will work if you want to spend for an upgrade. You will pick nothing up in HP with either MSD or Mallory upgrade unless you have a very poor quality module, coil, cap, rotor, or wires.


Could you please explain the second half of the first sentence...........I have been running a Mallory Unilite in every carburated engine I have been around for the last 10yrs. 2 C-70 dumps with tall deck 427's, a Big block Chevelle, my street small block Chevelle, my brothers Monte Carlo. I have had one failure with the unilite..........................I fried a cap cause I burnt a wire off. I gather that MSD has a nice distributor, but have you ever compared how to recurve the two. It takes a set of keys I think I have 8 keys from 12-28*. And one that I made for 8*. Rather than changing bushings and only having a couple of choices 18, 21,25,28.

[want-a-be]

thanks to everyone for all the help so far. I know my fuel system does need some attention, i just have not gotten to it yet. I am going to change it to a 3/8 line and performance fuel pump( would you recommend 80 or 110 gph) . My combo seems to be in the middle of both heads. I plan on keeping the engine the way it is now because my pockets arent too deep at the moment. So with the engine the way it is(after i upgrade fuel system) do you think the 180 or 200 cc heads would be a safer bet. This is mostly a street car and i am looking for lots of torque. I will bring it to the track from time to time, but am mostly looking for the max power i can get under 6500 rpm. My goal is to reach around 400 hp to the wheels and run in the 12's at the track. Is this a realistic goal for my car? Also would you reccomend 3.55 or 3.73 for the rear . I have not swapped gears yet and have gotton advice both ways from people, still trying to decide. Any advice would be much appreciated thanks again

I'd go with the 355s if your running on the street alot. When I was building street stuff when I was a kid I had everything from 330s to 373s
think I liked the 342s the best.
Later, Don :cool:

[Awesome Bill]

First thing I would do is upgrade your fuel system including the sump. Don't forget it, it all has to be minium .400 to supply enough fuel for 400 hp. That is it. the 80 gallon per hour pump will supply enough fuel for over 1000 hp @ a bsfc of .50 so the 80 gallon per hour pump will do fine for your little engine.

The 400 at the rear wheel won't happen. HP don't make a car like yours run anyway. Forget the hp #'s because you won't make any power and anything over 85%VE anyway if that. So work off the torque. Torque is what power is. If you can make 400/425ft lbs of torque under 5000 rpm, you will easily run into the mid 12's if not high 11's geared and convertered properly with a little 500 cfm vacuum carb. We have done it more than once.

Use what your going to run on the street. 3.55 gear with a very small diameter tire, under 25"s and the rotational weight alone will help with the performance and e.t. Along with the 180cc head would be my choice for what you have told us no matter what anyone says. Your after torque, you will hurt torque with larger 200cc heads, Bottom line is you want to use as much torque properly to propell your little street car faster than most probably around you if you choose well.

A air gap style Dart dual plane intake will work best If this were my engine, I would run a 500 cfm Holley or Edelbrock and that will put your engine right in tune with the VE @85% at best for this usuable cfm.

We just installed a 3¾" crank into a brand new 305/331 Street Heat crate engine we do for a Chev engine for a customers 86 Blazer. He has stock gears and tires on it. We also did a nice set of duals, 500 cfm Edelbrock and with his stock converter, I can leave off idle and smoke both rear wheels all the way threw first. It pulls like a bat out of you know where and I used the 305 heads, unshrouded the valves both intake and exhaust, a little 270 hyd roller, 10.3:1 keith black pistons and this thing with a set of Comp Cams 1.52 roller tips, Pro Comp HEI, EPS 87-92 Manifold with a 1" 4 holed spacer will make most 350's seem very slooooooow.

This thing drives like a new Mustang. The torque is what moves her down low. It wlil not make any power over 4500. I won't even tell you what it made on the dyno in hp but it was a little over 375ft lbs of torque @ 3800 and the torque curve look as flat as the pavement we drive her on. Thats what we were shooting for. All installed for under $4000.00 bucks with a years warranty. Just thought I would throw that in there.

[lun40119]

A 383 with 180's and an Edelbrock 500.......

[Awesome Bill]

Bigger is better so even bigger must be even better. Heard it a milllion times. Trust me on this one. I will send you the 180 head package, the intake, and the carb. If you install it properely and take her to the track, get a baseline, then if you can borrow someones 600 or 750 even better and it goes faster, I will purchase a new one of those and send it to you no charge! Is that sounding good or what. You run that thing with a closed exhaust, the cam you have, and want what you have described to me, You will see the performance gains

[want-a-be]

What ever you decide, I'd like to know how it turns out. Myself I don't like the vac secondaries on my carbs. Smallest you can get that in will help you on the street. Which ever you decide on you'll like them.

Later, Don :cool:

[SUX 2BU]

Very interesting information about the fuel system. Mine is stock on my truck. I should look into what size the stock lines are before I do the cam/head swap.