230cc Pro 1 Platinums

[camaroman7d]

First off this is a great idea to have a forum right on the manufactures site. I've been lurking for a while but, now I have a question or two.

First a little detail about what I'm building it is a Dart block based 400ci SBC, that will be topped with Dart Pro 1 Platinums (230cc) and an 8-71 blower. This will be going in my street/strip 70 Nova. I have a custom ground solid flat tappet cam .582/.564 lift 257/266 @.050 It will be run on pump gas and make around 12-14lbs of boost. I just finished building the short block and I want to prep the heads so I can finish up the engine.

My questions are; What work should I do to the heads before bolting them on? I will of course cc the chambers and make "adjustments" to be sure they are all equal. I will also port match the runners. I will be using Fel-pro 1206 intake gaskets. The castings are pretty nice out of the box but, I would like to clean up the little bit of casting flash. Would it be advisable to do any more work to the heads other than that? Exhaust ports? Valve stem bosses? I don't mind doing the work but, I don't want to waste time if there will be no gain. The whole reason I went with the Darts is because the ports are great out of the box from what I've read. I don't want to change the shape of the ports since they work so well already. Are these heads that good out of the box?

I also have an 8-71 blown 388CI SBC with the older Pro 1's 215cc that I built about 5 years ago. It's a beast, the heads were bowl blended and I did the rest of the port and chamber work myself.

[Dart Vader]

The work you are already planning to do is probably pretty optimal.

Leaving the intake ports alone is most probably the right call, I would probably also leave the exhaust ports and the valve stem bosses alone as they are already very well designed.

There is a very real danger that the heads will actually lose power after any of this work is done unless the person doing the work is very familiar with Dart heads and wet-flow design.

[lun40119]

If you haven't already I would mock up the valve train and check the pushrod area if you are going to use standard stud mount rockers. Odds are you could have some clearance issues with the 230's. I did with my 215's.

Jake

[camaroman7d]

The work you are already planning to do is probably pretty optimal.

Leaving the intake ports alone is most probably the right call, I would probably also leave the exhaust ports and the valve stem bosses alone as they are already very well designed.

There is a very real danger that the heads will actually lose power after any of this work is done unless the person doing the work is very familiar with Dart heads and wet-flow design.

Thanks for the fast reply. I will proceed as planned. I won't re-shape anything or touch the valve stem bosses.

[camaroman7d]

If you haven't already I would mock up the valve train and check the pushrod area if you are going to use standard stud mount rockers. Odds are you could have some clearance issues with the 230's. I did with my 215's.

Jake

I will be using standard stud mount rockers (1.6 Comp Pro Magnums). What type of clearance issues are you talking about? Of course I still have to order my pushrods and rockers so I can't check geometry yet. This won't have any effect on the port work. Do you happen to have any pictures of the "issues"? What had to be done to fix it?

[lun40119]

There has been some really good threads here about the pushrod area where the pushrods travels through the head near the intake runners. I had to remove a small amount of material from 4 of the intake runners to get mine to work. There is talk about adjustable guideplates, I bought them, and was not happy with the way it all worked out. What I did was used one of my old pushrods, to check that stuff. When it comes time to order pushrods, make sure you have the rockers you are going to use with this build, and then get an adjustable pushrod and make sure you get the pushrod that produces the most narrow scrub. If you need any help Don is around and he is better at explaining all this than I am. Need any help don't hesitate to ask..........

Jake

[camaroman7d]

There has been some really good threads here about the pushrod area where the pushrods travels through the head near the intake runners. I had to remove a small amount of material from 4 of the intake runners to get mine to work. There is talk about adjustable guideplates, I bought them, and was not happy with the way it all worked out. What I did was used one of my old pushrods, to check that stuff. When it comes time to order pushrods, make sure you have the rockers you are going to use with this build, and then get an adjustable pushrod and make sure you get the pushrod that produces the most narrow scrub. If you need any help Don is around and he is better at explaining all this than I am. Need any help don't hesitate to ask..........

Jake

Good deal Jake,
I am not a rookie by any means. I understand and have measured for pushrod length many times before (you want the rocker tip to ride on the center 1/3 of the valve stem throughout the complete cycle).

I was curious as to what areas you were having clearance issues. I will order rocker arms and measure for push rod length, at that point I will mock everything up and do any clearancing that's needed. Right now I need to get the ports cleaned up. Thanks for the heads up.

[lun40119]

No problem, I hope you didn't take my comment as an implication that you were a first timer. I am the green one here........just some guy trying to go faster. I just hadn't seen you mention it so I thought I would mention it. Good luck, keep us posted.

Jake

[want-a-be]

He is talking about the area under the push rod guides. Where they push rods run along side the intake runners. Give me a pm if you need to talk and I'll give you some contact info.

Thanks, Don

[camaroman7d]

No problem, I hope you didn't take my comment as an implication that you were a first timer. I am the green one here........just some guy trying to go faster. I just hadn't seen you mention it so I thought I would mention it. Good luck, keep us posted.

Jake

Jake,
No offense taken at all. I don't know it all or I wouldn't be here reading and posting. I apreciate the fact you were willing to offer your advice.

[camaroman7d]

He is talking about the area under the push rod guides. Where they push rods run along side the intake runners. Give me a pm if you need to talk and I'll give you some contact info.

Thanks, Don

Don,
Thanks for the offer and if I run into something I have questions about I will look you up. If it's just a matter of making a little room I can handle that either by hand or in my mill. I'll be heading to Las Vegas for the Super Nationals so, I won't work on the engine again until next week. I plan to have it buttoned up by the end of next week.

[want-a-be]

Sounds like you're pretty capable. So I doubt you have any problems you're not going to be able to handle. Mocking up will pretty much show what you're going to need to do.

Let us know how things turn out.

Don

[blown71nova]

Good deal Jake,
I am not a rookie by any means. I understand and have measured for pushrod length many times before (you want the rocker tip to ride on the center 1/3 of the valve stem throughout the complete cycle).

I was curious as to what areas you were having clearance issues. I will order rocker arms and measure for push rod length, at that point I will mock everything up and do any clearancing that's needed. Right now I need to get the ports cleaned up. Thanks for the heads up.

cameroman i did your same engine set up a year ago check for clearance where your intake push rods go threw your heads. i had to mill about .035 off sides to clear but be carefull they look thin in that part of the head you go to far and i think you will go into intake port. you will like it when done tire smoke at will. Bob Jr.

[camaroman7d]

cameroman i did your same engine set up a year ago check for clearance where your intake push rods go threw your heads. i had to mill about .035 off sides to clear but be carefull they look thin in that part of the head you go to far and i think you will go into intake port. you will like it when done tire smoke at will. Bob Jr.

Bob Jr.,
I would like to hear more about your car and combination. There aren't many roots blown guys with street cars that actually perform. I try to keep in contact with the few I run accross. If you have pictures, website details ect.. I would like to know. I'll PM you with conatact information.

[camaroman7d]

Well Bob Jr. I don't have enough posts to send a PM so here is what I tried to PM you.

Bob Jr.,
If you don't mind I would like to know the details of your car/engine. Does this car see any track time? Is it a pump gas car? How much boost? Compression, etc...
You can e-mail me if you get a few minutes camaroman7d@aol.com. I don't know if you looked at the link in my signature but, I have a blown 388ci SBC in my other car. There are details there.

Thanks,
Royce

[Awesome Bill]

Flat tappet is a waste @ this time, the larger 2.08 valve will kill any type of solid spring @ 140# and 300 to 350# open @ rpm over 6000. Use a roller and be done. As far as rockers, roller rockers are primative @ best and should not be used. The shaft rockers are the only professional way to go and be able to use the .180 offsets so you don't have to worry about push rods. The little 5/16 push rods need attention and no one seems to want to touch that. The 3/8 .120-.135" wall is the only way to go.

It is cost effective to use the shaft rockers over the roller rocker stud girdle pain in the but move all around system. Jesel makes a killer system and will actually make power. There are many out there but T&D and Jesel along with Crower are top of the line.

[camaroman7d]

Bill I respect your opinion but, I am not buying the fact that solid flat tappet cams are no longer a decent choice. This is a street car, I have run solid roller on the street before and it cost me an engine (broken roller lifters). My blown 388 is almost 5 years old, has a solid flat tappet, and revs with no problem to 7200 (where I shift) and it is still pulling. A good quality spring will do wonders (I run Isky springs). If I was making money racing or racing for points I would then "maybe" think about a shaft rocker. For what I'm doing it just doesn't make any sense. The same 388ci engine has roller rockers on it as well, just like many of my previous builds I have never had an issue with them. I do use moly push rods that are 1 piece. Lets keep in mind I build street cars that see the strip from time to time. Solid roller cams and shaft rockers are way overkill. I recently read somewhere that shaft rockers aren't any better than stud mounts, I wish I could remember where I saw that. My point is no matter what one guy says there is another that will say just the opposite. Up until a few years ago nobody had shaft rockers and cars were still going fast. I'm not saying they don't have a place, I'm just saying they are not needed for my application.

[Awesome Bill]

If you knew how much Zinc, Moly, (if any), sulfur along with every other additive that protects your camshaft has been mandated to be taken to the unsafe level for flat tappets cams has been lowered to, you would not even think about taken the lobe leaving the engine deal at all.

But if you think flat tappet cams are what you need, you keep doing it. The spring is never the issue with flat tappet. The nose open pressure will determine that. If you use 300lbs of open pressure which is pretty much it, you will notice on a spin tron, the valve train is out of control. Your intake valve being the heavier of the 2 will cause the intake valve spring to leave its seat and the valve to dance around like a flag pole. I have seen it with my own eyes and the only thing that makes it better is over 400 lbs of open pressure +.

Now you can run your engine any rpm you want, that does not mean it correct. Who ever said shaft rockers are no better than a stud mounted rocker never used a roller. What a bunch of nonsense. That just proves some people have opinions and can print them. We have been using shaft rockers for over 30 years. Yes they break but so does the stud mounted. But, it is much more stable and 2 bolts is better than one and it can not flex.

For flat tappet your probably right, you don't need it for that, but put one of those engines on a spin tron and get a look at the valve train. Nascar for years fought this problem being mandated to run flat tappets. See what they had to do to get it right. Thousands of dollars to upgrade the camshafts to make them think they were rollers!

[camaroman7d]

Bill,
I know all about the issues with the oil additive packages. There are oils and additives that still have what's needed to keep a flat tappet alive and well. I check the lash on my other solid flat tappet cam every other oil change and I have yet to see any change.

Until they figure out a way to keep a solid roller lifter alive in a "REAL" street car I will not run one again. The risk far out weighs any reward. Since I am not running a wild solid roller there is no need for shaft rockers. Now I'm sure you're going to tell me that you know of guys that have 50-100K miles on a solid roller with no issues, I have seen/heard of very few live in a real street car and even those had issues at some point. What I mean by a real street car is a car that doesn't use a trailer to get from point A to point B no matter how far it is. A car that can handle sitting in cruise traffic, etc... I don't think a car that has to have spring pressures monitored after 2 - 1/4 mile passes is a street car. Now if you know some secret to keeping a solid roller alive in a street car that will see MANY MANY street miles, I am all ears. Would you offer a warranty or guarantee? If so, lets talk. My last solid roller died and I used a complete kit (springs, retainers, keepers, cam, lifters, etc...) from one big name company including a rev kit. They told me it should should live about 25K miles. It lived less than 5,000 miles. Oh and by the way it didn't ET any better than the flat tappet cam it replaced. This was a N/A 383 nothing changed but, the cam.

I don't drive my car on a spintron. I doubt I will be trying to spin the RPM's that NASCAR does either. I know I won't be spinning 8500+ RPM for 500 miles straight. 7200RPM is my limit and that will be only on occasion and for brief periods of time.

I respect your opinion but, we have to keep in mind the use of the car in question. Everything is not drag racing, not all of us tow our cars. Some of us actually drive'em. Are you telling me the cam company custom ground and sold me a cam that won't work? They knew exactly what RPM range and the use of the car (along with every other detail). If I have problems I will be sure to let you know, that you were right (that's the kind of guy I am). Are you saying it won't rev to 7200 and keep making power? Are you saying I will have valve float before then? What problem should I be looking for? (that you don't need a spintron to see)

As far as shaft rockers go, I hear they have a limited life cycle (Is that true?). That may be fine for a race car that is torn down every winter and inspected. That is not practical for a street car. The stud mount rockers I bought have a lifetime warranty. So how much HP am I giving away with stud mount rockers over shaft rockers? In my application?

[want-a-be]

Flat tappet cams will rev to 7500 and still make power. I did a 355 years ago, 20, that we did over 30 pulls to 8k on the dyno and about half again that was aborted. Didn't fall off that much from pear power at 7500 to the 8000 rpms either. Every full pull was to 8KRPMs. Lil' mouse did ok considering the perts used. Made 565 hp. Drag raced that same cam for about 6-7 years. Ran great the whole time. Yes I know that was before the lube changes. Thats not the point....RPMing is.

Don

[camaroman7d]

Flat tappet cams will rev to 7500 and still make power. I did a 355 years ago, 20, that we did over 30 pulls to 8k on the dyno and about half again that was aborted. Didn't fall off that much from pear power at 7500 to the 8000 rpms either. Every full pull was to 8KRPMs. Lil' mouse did ok considering the perts used. Made 565 hp. Drag raced that same cam for about 6-7 years. Ran great the whole time. Yes I know that was before the lube changes. Thats not the point....RPMing is.

Don

Don,
I agree the flat tappet stuff works and there are still a lot of guys running them for the same reason I do. Once they're broken in the risk of failure is pretty much gone. I have low ratio break in rockers 1.3's. Haven't had a problem with any of the flat tappet engines I've built for myself or friends. Theres one that's been running around for 10 years now and it gets spun to 7,000 on a regular basis by this guy. My RPM goal is 7200 with 7500 being the max and that is what the cam is designed for. My other engine has the same basic guidelines and it revs with no problem.

Now if I was bulding a race only car I would go solid roller for sure, there are benefits, that can't be argued. For what I do it just doesn't really make sense to take that risk for maybe 20HP. Pump gas (91 octane here) will limit me far before the flat tappet cam will as far as HP goes.

[Awesome Bill]

That was years ago when we had oil with a great supplement package and people did not have to be educated on maintenance . You can run a flat tappet with no problems @ all as long as the oil changes include OS's. But, even after break in, with the oil that most people can go buy now only has 800 ppm of the really good stuff because of the cat failures the big three now have to warranty to 100,000 miles.

My situation is way different and with any solid or hydraulic camshaft, it is a risk to use it when crate engines are sold to the public with a 2-24warranty. If you don't warranty anything, then you can use what you like. Warranty it and you will soon be out of business because you will have the end user do what they don't know how to do and you have to figure that out, write them a book and then you find out they can't read nor want to and then factor that in to making your engine in-destructable. It does not include flat tappet design crate engines nor does it include compression over 10.5/1.

I am not saying that flat tappet hyd or solid cams are no good, nothing from the truth, what I am saying is your not making what you think your making over 5500 with hyd and 6500 with solids. I have an extensive dyno portfolio and only the small block Fords do well above those #'s and that is not by much. Maybe you have something special that most of the engine builders out there do not know of? Then again, maybe not! jmo

Lets face it, it only cost $400.00 more maybe, to do a killer hyd roller or street solid roller. I don't car what anyone says about RPM with hyd and flat tappets. If you don't use extremely lightweight Titanium parts and run a valve over 2.02, your kidding yourself with 7000 rpm engines making good power above that. I have seen an engine on a spin tron with your exact parts you describe. @ 6500rpm, the valve springs were leaving the seat of the heads and the valves were dancing around like flag poles. And we wonder why stuff happens. Maybe its bad luck?

You can turn any engine anywhere you want to. That means nothing. Usually if I am asked any questions at the track, the first question back is what do you turn the engine? I then reply drop the shift points 1000 rpm and come back and tell me what it done. If I get to drive the car, which I have many times done, I always shift a flat tappet engine 6400 and a hyd 5200. I have never failed to run faster than what the real driver had run. Why? Now when you have a dyno to work with, run valves that are pretty much 2.05 and larger, with 150 lbs seat pressure and 300 open, you will see what happens to your hp @ above 7000 rpm. It will fall like a rock. If you have very very lightweight parts, you may be able to achieve 7000 rpm and make some power gains.

Every engine builder that is worth his salt knows this. It is not information that is top secret. If you use any more seat pressure with the combination, you are at risk of damage. They have come up with the edm lifter but it still can only help. Sooner or later you will come across a lobe problem. There are some very nice coatings out there and comp cams has made some great improvements.

Just take a look at solid or hyd camshaft lobe and then compare that to the roller lobe, take the rpm factor and tell me that the lifter will stay on the lobe after peak lift and 7500 rpm with less spring pressure than what it takes a roller to do @ 800 lbs let alone 300lbs. The ramp is twice as steep and closing cycle is very ugly. Why do you think they come up with roller to start with? I have found the only thing to do is run 2 engines back to back. 1 with the flat tappet and one with the same roller profile and then this tells the story with rpm and track e.t. Especially if your over gears and convertered.

[camaroman7d]

Bill,
That all sounds real nice but, you didn't answer any of the questions I had. Did you even read what I wrote? "If" my engine falls off at 6500 that's really not a problem (I know it won't happen) with the blower on it there will be more than enough power from idle to 6500 anyway.

You had an engine on the spintron with my exact same specs? What specs are those? I don't think I even listed cam numbers or spring specs. You are better than YOU thought if you were able to figure all that out.

It might be easier for us to just agree to disagree.

Are you willing to warranty a solid roller for me? Repair or replace the engine when the little roller bearings decide to come out and tear up some things?

[blown71nova]

camaroman send me your phone# and i will call you. bob h

[blown71nova]

royce post your e/mail add. and we will go another direction to get a hold of each other

[Awesome Bill]

Anyone can on purpose destroy anything that someone produces as a product to prove a point, (though I don't think you could even do that to one of my engines), either way, why do you think they do not make flat tappet engines any longer? Progress produces better products that produce more power and stability. As with any parts, the human factor is built in and with that, anything situation or failure you can think of is always possible, but not probable, your better off with the roller being its brand new.

[lun40119]

I have been watching this thread learning with every post. I have always used mechanical flat tappets because I was unsure how to set up a roller. Having never done it before it was greek to me. I have been running a mechanical flat tappet Lunati 40119 with 1.6 rockers on it for three or four years now, and have loved it. But with the turd getting older now, and looking at a rebuild. I decided to start over with a clean slate. I have my SHP block, and a Callies crank with some Lunati rods, and Mahle pistons and I have opted to go with a mechanical roller. I chose a grind from lunati, with there pressurized lifters. I can say that I am worried about the reliability, but Steve says there is nothing to get to excited over. Im all paid up for the power tour in 09, I just don't want any BS along the way.

To me if I set the two cams side by side, it is insane to think that the flat tappet can even come close to competing with the roller. The area under the curve is incredible. But until I get some miles on it, I am just speculating. So I guess that leave me on the fence.

P.S. Bill If you still want to buy the turd its bagged up ready to go;););)

[guru]

There is a guy on the corvetteforum that does failure analysis on solid rollers, and in most cases the failure has to do with the metal of the roller and the cams bouncing off of each other for some sort of metalurgy failure, especially with the higher spring rates necessary for big valve big blocks. Doesnt really fail at the bearings(same failure on the isky bushed lifters). The point of failure can be mitigated with a larger diameter roller think the really big jesel keyed lifters with the BIG wheels. This is more of a problem with big blocks, I havent really heard of a lot of problems with top end roller lifters in street equipped small blocks failing rapidly.

Largest diameter wheel you can find, with a rev kit will keep the lifter from bouncing on the cam and absorb the shocks better, and probably live longer.

I will post up links later today.

On a smallblock and I am speaking as a guy who reads a lot (practical experience is zilch), Crane makes a street roller lobe that will keep the spring pressures down, a set of high pressure oiled roller lifters, a rev kit, and appropriate spring pressures should keep your solid roller lifter living for a good long time.

On the subject of oil. since the oil problem has become fairly widespread and known, many oil companies are offering special oils for flat tappet motors. For instance, Royal Purple now sells a breakin oil for breaking in flat tappet motors. Some of the various racing oils also have the full packages for flat tappets. I think the current cheap option is the rotella T desiel oil, which still has all the goodie packages.

[Dart Vader]

royce post your e/mail add. and we will go another direction to get a hold of each other
I hate to intercede, but this isn't a good idea.
If you need to e-mail another forum member send them your e-mail address in a PM.

If you post it in the forum a spam bot scanning the net may record it and your incoming spam e-mail will skyrocket. This tends to happen when you post an email address anywhere online. At the very least, if you are going to post it online, use a disguised format like this:

myaddress at mysite dot com
instead of -
myaddress@mysite.com

This will prevent bots from recognizing it as an email address.

Sorry to interrupt a good conversation here, just thought I'd offer a friendly pointer.

[blown71nova]

I hate to intercede, but this isn't a good idea.
If you need to e-mail another forum member send them your e-mail address in a PM.

If you post it in the forum a spam bot scanning the net may record it and your incoming spam e-mail will skyrocket. This tends to happen when you post an email address anywhere online. At the very least, if you are going to post it online, use a disguised format like this:

myaddress at mysite dot com
instead of -
myaddress@mysite.com

This will prevent bots from recognizing it as an email address.

Sorry to interrupt a good conversation here, just thought I'd offer a friendly pointer.
THANK YOU BLOOD HOUND [just teasing you] bob

[Awesome Bill]

That is not even close. I never heard such nosense. There are soft cores but they pretty much have been long gone.

The reason the lifter leaves the roller is because the valve spring and valve weight don't get it on. The lifter is lofted right off the lobe and then slams back down on the back side. This puts those plow marks in the rollers we see.

The only thing that fixes that is 325+ seat pressure. It is never too much seat pressure it is always to little and the valve is to heavy. There are some cams that we have found with no closing ramp @ all. Maybe just a mistake but this take 350+ seat pressure and it keeps it pretty good.

I have been doing roller for years and anything with a flat tappet is considered junk. Not saying they are junk, just the rpm and valve size takes a huge hit on the intake valve spring. It is a NO NO to use flat tappet anyting with anything over 2.19 valve. And I cut that to minimum if it is used or run used cut down titanium and keep everything on the valve train except the push rod a minimum. It will work fine. Other than that, I have never heard of any type of flat tappet cam working above 6500 rpm with a big block chevy and staying alive.

You could load the engine with some OS's and get away maybe?

[guru]

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-tech-performance/2146403-bbc-solid-roller-lifter-failures-a-root-cause-analysis.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-tech-performance/2152913-is-the-load-on-solid-roller-lifters-really-the-highest-at-idle.html

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-tech-performance/2165746-maximizing-solid-roller-lifter-life-caution-very-long.html


Not disagreeing, just passing what I have read.

[camaroman7d]

Anyone can on purpose destroy anything that someone produces as a product to prove a point, (though I don't think you could even do that to one of my engines), either way, why do you think they do not make flat tappet engines any longer? Progress produces better products that produce more power and stability. As with any parts, the human factor is built in and with that, anything situation or failure you can think of is always possible, but not probable, your better off with the roller being its brand new.

Just how many of these production engines come with a SOLID roller? Why do you think that is? Hyd Rollers and Solid rollers are apples to oranges. I know you really want to make a point but, it aint going to happen. For a "true" street car that will see several thousand miles a year there really is no reason to run a solid roller. I will achieve my goal with a solid flat tappet, just stand by and watch.

Why do they even mave flat tappet cams anymore if they don't work? Like I said before there are advantages and applications where a solid roller is the only choice. In this case that is not a fact and it would actually be counter productive for my goals. Reliability is more important than 20-25HP (or even 75 - 100HP), that little bit of "possible' extra power at the risk of engine failure just doesn't make sense for a "street" car. That means no trailer and serious street miles. Do you have a "real" street car and does it have a solid roller? If so please elaborate. I would love to hear all the details including how much it is driven, etc... I'll wait for you to answer that before we continue our discussion.

[Awesome Bill]

Never said a flat tappet design cam does not work, I said they are not worth the risk of loosing a lobe on a break in or even after a few miles. I have seen this more times than you because I do over 100 engines a year not 1 or 2 or even 10. Flat tappet cams are fine, I never meant to say they are not o.k. and if it sounded like that I am truly sorry. WHAT I MEANT IS THAT TO ME, THEY ARE A WAIST OF TIME JUST FOR THE FACT THAT THEY CAN SPREAD METAL ALL OVER THE ENGINE WHEN A LOBE DOES GO. Clean enough? Ofcourse, when a solid roller lets go, it also has to come apart. So if I take a risk on either, I want the roller only because of the power gained and usually you can just take the pan off and intake off and remove the debri.

Yes I have a 1968 real street car that is able to run 7.80's with both shots of NOS and runs deadly consistant in the 8.50 class that I use it for. I run it as much as any PRO STREET car that runs that fast as you do. The engine has the same cam and lifters as when I put it together 4 years ago. Never have had an issue with a roller cam on the street. I have never lost a wheel on any roller I have put on the street in HYD or Solid. If you want to see the car go to my website and click on the media and watch her go. FYI, I won the very first ShakeDown @ E-Town 8.50 race after wading threw the field of competitors and even putting out cleanly the #1 qualifer. I only run this car in this class becasue it is my street car and it is hard enough to get in and out of a real street car with a roll cage let alone putting a funny car cage and be legal to run any quicker. It will run quicker. I also have a few other cars that it would sound like I am bragging if I listed them all. Racing is what I do, I just don't build race engines.

I have never had a customer call with any type of roller camshaft problem in all the engines we sell, even the ones we ship over seas! These are now becoming race engines people are also using real pump gas with in the e.t. bracket classes including super comp and super gas along with the Marine Monsters we now make for serveral companies. They have had roller cams since the 40's, they are nothing to get excited about.

[camaroman7d]

Bill,
Sounds like you have a few fast "race" cars. We obviously don't see eye to eye on cams or what a "street" car is. I DRIVE my cars that means no trailer and several hundred mile trips running on 91 octane pump gas. Kind of hard to find gas stations along the highway that have 110 octane fuel. For "your" kind of street car solid rollers are fine I'm sure. For "my" kind of street car there is little to no advantage to having a solid roller. You're right you do build more engines than me but, the fact remains I have never had an issue with a flat tappet cam. I have had issues with a solid roller as have MANY people I know.

Keep doing what you do as it seems to work for you. I'll keep doing what works for me. I'm not trying to go 7's or 8's my goal is 9's on pump gas and street tires, while driving it to and from the track. It can and will be done with a flat tappet cam.

It's been fun!

Royce

[want-a-be]

Royce,

I'm looking foward to hearing how you car turns out. Be sure to let us know how things work out. Who did the cam for you?

Don

[Awesome Bill]

been there done that long time ago with pump gas. you only want to go faster after that.

[camaroman7d]

Royce,

I'm looking foward to hearing how you car turns out. Be sure to let us know how things work out. Who did the cam for you?

Don

Don,
The cam in my 400 was ground by Cam Motion. The cam in my 388 was ground by Engle Racing Cams. I'll be sure to post how the car turns out. I am working on the suspension right now.

[camaroman7d]

been there done that long time ago with pump gas. you only want to go faster after that.


Why am I not surprised with this response? I don't think you know me well enough to assume I will want to go faster. The two cars I am building right now are for street duty. This means driving to and from any place with no trailer. I have no desire for either of these cars to go any faster and as a matter of fact if they only run 9.99 once that's fine my goal will be achieved and I will set my sights on other challenges. How do you know I haven't already been faster? If I feel the need to own another race car I will build one. I don't get the same enjoyment out of going 1/4 mile at a time and then putting it back on the trailer and taking it home so it can sit weeks or months before the next outting, that's not for me. I drive my cars at least 3 times a week and since I live in California that pretty much means year round.

[want-a-be]

I'm to that point with my vehicles also. No real desire to own any more race only cars. Must be nice to have good weather year around...lol

Need any help/ideas with the chassis tune feel free to ask.

Don

[lun40119]

I never get to drive my car. Seems like about 2 months out of the year. It is friggen snowing again, and the rest of the week, we will be lucky to see 10° outside. Royce.....Bill is a great source of some really good information. You just need to pick and choose what you want. I had to thicken up a little so I didn't get pissed everytime I came here to read something. I know for me he is absolutely right. Everytime I build something..........it is never enough.........

[Awesome Bill]

that must be nice to live there and be able to drive her when you want to. I do enjoy the Sunday drive on the Harley with my wife on the back for years now. But even on my Harley, I can't stand to be second. When I am in my 7.86 street drive 68 Street car and anyone pulls up with something worth me racing, I never get the itch to loose, I always will heads up with any one not driving a tooth pick.

With any performance car, you get your butt handed to you and you want to come back. Its perfectly all American and Natural. If you can get your butt handed to you and feel nothing, you really do have thick skin. I have never met a person who gets beat and has no desire to come back. Now of course if you build this and never race it in a competition heads up form, you really don't have anything to prove with the next guy you time trial against if he is faster. Let somone call you out and you get beat in a heads up real race and it will show the croud you just got a butt wippen as we call it. But if you never heads up or fast bracket, you won't have to worry and you can just sit back and enjoy your rides. "Thick skin" I like that Jake!

[want-a-be]

LOL...you forgot addictive. Racing is more addictive then any drug out there. It ought to be illegal. Everytime you make a little gain you're extremely happy with it,....until the trip home from the track when you start schemeing on the next tenth of a second. lol...

Don

[camaroman7d]

Don,
I might just pick your brain on the chassis tuning. Thanks for the offer.

Lun,
It is very hard to get under my skin. It really takes a lot. Bill isn't even close.

Bill,
I have no doubt you know your stuff, you just don't know how to present it or treat people with the same respect you want. I am very good at reading people and with my career field I deal with all different personalities. I have fun toying with you because, you will bite everytime. I knew you would respond with the been there done that, type of response. I have my doubts but, it's your story tell it how you want.

I don't street race they are very hard on you if you get caught out here. They will take your car and you can spend some jail time depending on the situation. I also don't have anything to prove to anyone. I have no problem shaking your hand if you beat me, good for you. I only compete with myself. I set personal goals and shoot for them. I only have to make myself happy. One day you will get that figured out. As you said no matter how hard you try there will always be some body faster so why chase something you can never catch? I don't mind people running their mouth or "calling" me out as long as they do it respectfully. I am a grown man and beyond the childish stuff of trying to prove how much of a man I am. If someone disrespects me the last thing on my mind is racing. I treat people with respect and I demand the same in return.

I enjoy myself at the track with friends and some of them have VERY fast RACE cars. Each and every one of them wish they still had streetable hot rods. When they are on the trailer I cruise right by driving my car. They fell into the I want to be faster than the next guy trap, now they have cars they can't really enjoy.

These days it's not what you know, anybody can go fast on race gas. My challenge (to myself) is going fast on pump gas and having a car you can "really" drive, that is reliable, and somewhat fast. This means hoping on the highway and going places. Not filling up with race gas and driving 10 miles and parking the car. Of course these are the things I feel are needed, obviously to you going faster is more important than being able to drive the car.

I also do all my own work because I'm picky and I enjoy doing it. It's a passion.

Harleys are ok, I've owned a couple. They bore me though. I would much rather drive a decent street/strip car. As you can see everyone has their own likes and dislikes. The old different strokes thing aplies here. You will never convince me to think like you and you will never think like me. I prefer to lead not follow.

[want-a-be]

Don,
I might just pick your brain on the chassis tuning. Thanks for the offer.

Would like to help out if I can. Let me know.

Each and every one of them wish they still had streetable hot rods. When they are on the trailer I cruise right by driving my car. They fell into the I want to be faster than the next guy trap, now they have cars they can't really enjoy.

Been through the same thing. I've built a few cars in the past that I eventually didn't drive much on the street. I would always end up selling it and doing another. So I built a race car and went racing. When that got old I sold it, and just started helping people out who needed it. Last 4 years or so I have been in the dirt scene. The most popular saying in the pits there is,..." noone else is doing that. " I love proving that it still works. I've blended some Drag racing chassis ideas into the mix and have had real good luck with it. If Mark , the owner/drive, is out on the track he is always the smoothest car out there. Smooth is fast in circle track. Another thing I really like is when someone is looking at what we are doing with the chassis and comes up saying, " that won't work. " But it does. Seems like the circle track scene has a lot of room for some different ideas.

Looking foward to helping out if I can.

Don

[Awesome Bill]

Don,
I might just pick your brain on the chassis tuning. Thanks for the offer.

Lun,
It is very hard to get under my skin. It really takes a lot. Bill isn't even close.

Bill,
I have no doubt you know your stuff, you just don't know how to present it or treat people with the same respect you want. I am very good at reading people and with my career field I deal with all different personalities. I have fun toying with you because, you will bite everytime. I knew you would respond with the been there done that, type of response. I have my doubts but, it's your story tell it how you want.

I don't street race they are very hard on you if you get caught out here. They will take your car and you can spend some jail time depending on the situation. I also don't have anything to prove to anyone. I have no problem shaking your hand if you beat me, good for you. I only compete with myself. I set personal goals and shoot for them. I only have to make myself happy. One day you will get that figured out. As you said no matter how hard you try there will always be some body faster so why chase something you can never catch? I don't mind people running their mouth or "calling" me out as long as they do it respectfully. I am a grown man and beyond the childish stuff of trying to prove how much of a man I am. If someone disrespects me the last thing on my mind is racing. I treat people with respect and I demand the same in return.

I enjoy myself at the track with friends and some of them have VERY fast RACE cars. Each and every one of them wish they still had streetable hot rods. When they are on the trailer I cruise right by driving my car. They fell into the I want to be faster than the next guy trap, now they have cars they can't really enjoy.

These days it's not what you know, anybody can go fast on race gas. My challenge (to myself) is going fast on pump gas and having a car you can "really" drive, that is reliable, and somewhat fast. This means hoping on the highway and going places. Not filling up with race gas and driving 10 miles and parking the car. Of course these are the things I feel are needed, obviously to you going faster is more important than being able to drive the car.

I also do all my own work because I'm picky and I enjoy doing it. It's a passion.

Harleys are ok, I've owned a couple. They bore me though. I would much rather drive a decent street/strip car. As you can see everyone has their own likes and dislikes. The old different strokes thing aplies here. You will never convince me to think like you and you will never think like me. I prefer to lead not follow.

As far as fast street cars that run pump gas, your way behind @ best. You forget I have been doing this since 1974.

My first car 1965GTO was running 12.50's street trim in 1977 with a pure Pontiac 400 TH400 with little gearing. So fast pump gas means nothing.

1992 till 1995 is all I worked with and run 10.50's with a 9.75:1 396 that in that time was unheard of e.t. with a 3200 lb 70 Nova. NO Spray. N/A as Don likes. We then pumped up a 454 a little and run 9.54 and then they really had something to talk about.

We have pump gas engines @ 10:1 making well over 800 real hp and fast approaching 632's with 1000 hp. That is Big Chief stuff. running 7.90's in very light applications. These ofcourse are not anything but a drag car very light and appears street legal. But what is street legal. If its tagged I guess that clears it up. Anything over 3000 lbs is pretty much what I call a street car.

Of course I still own my 1965GTO with a double frame rail 7.50 cert chrome moly full cage and roll bar with Strange Strut Front end and all the rest of the goodies and when it does come out, still doing all the finishing work, this will be a real 1965 GTO that I will drive just like my 68 Camaro as well as my 72 Vega, (which is now @ ARC Races cars in PA getting a complete chassis upgrade for going real fast). So quick real street cars have always been real close and I have them to look at as well as drive any time I need to.

As far as thinking like you, I think like I need to think to make everything work like I think it needs to work. For your personal goal of running 9's with REAL PUMP GAS, keep up the good work, you'll maybe get there sooner than you think.

[camaroman7d]

As far as fast street cars that run pump gas, your way behind @ best. You forget I have been doing this since 1974.

My first car 1965GTO was running 12.50's street trim in 1977 with a pure Pontiac 400 TH400 with little gearing. So fast pump gas means nothing.

1992 till 1995 is all I worked with and run 10.50's with a 9.75:1 396 that in that time was unheard of e.t. with a 3200 lb 70 Nova. NO Spray. N/A as Don likes. We then pumped up a 454 a little and run 9.54 and then they really had something to talk about.

We have pump gas engines @ 10:1 making well over 800 real hp and fast approaching 632's with 1000 hp. That is Big Chief stuff. running 7.90's in very light applications. These ofcourse are not anything but a drag car very light and appears street legal. But what is street legal. If its tagged I guess that clears it up. Anything over 3000 lbs is pretty much what I call a street car.

Of course I still own my 1965GTO with a double frame rail 7.50 cert chrome moly full cage and roll bar with Strange Strut Front end and all the rest of the goodies and when it does come out, still doing all the finishing work, this will be a real 1965 GTO that I will drive just like my 68 Camaro as well as my 72 Vega, (which is now @ ARC Races cars in PA getting a complete chassis upgrade for going real fast). So quick real street cars have always been real close and I have them to look at as well as drive any time I need to.

As far as thinking like you, I think like I need to think to make everything work like I think it needs to work. For your personal goal of running 9's with REAL PUMP GAS, keep up the good work, you'll maybe get there sooner than you think.

You bit again. I love it!. What was the octane rating WAY back in 1974? If you put todays gas in that same car how would it run? You fail to realize todays gas is not like the good stuff we used to have. Here in California 91 octane is the best you can get at the pump. I had fast "street" cars back in the day as well. I'm a small block guy and people that are making big HP with these huge motors aren't impressive. Once again what you "think" is a street car and what I think is a street car are two different things. Like I said before HP numbers don't get me excited, there are twin turbo small cubic inch engines making huge power. If that's what I wanted that's what I would have. It's only money and these days you can buy any ET you want. That's not my game. I like to build my own stuff and enjoy it. When I get bored I build something else. My cars have to hold their own at a show as well as at the track. Unlike you I do my own welding and fabricating, I build my own engines, transmissions, and rear ends. I do this because I enjoy it, not to impress anyone.

Did I say I was trying to be the first person to run 9's on pump gas? If so please quote where I said that. I know there are MUCH faster pump gas cars out there. I am in no way trying to be the fastest. I have my PERSONAL goals set. What someone else claims or does won't change that. For some reason that doesn't get through to you. Probably because you're to busy talking and not spending enough time listening.

Aren't you the same guy that was whining about running 1/4 mile because the cars are to fast for the weight? Did it ever occur to you that you don't have to go that fast if you don't want?

Like I said I can read you like a book. I throw out a little info and you bite everytime. You are trying so hard to prove yourself to me for some reason. Of course you will come back and say I don't have to prove anything to you because after all I am Awesome Bill, lol. Took the words right out of your mouth huh?

Your 65 GTO sure sounds like a real street car, NOT! It has a "full moly cage and roll bar" I have never seen a car with a cage and roll bar. It should be safe though. Post some pictures when you get a chance. You have some fast RACE cars and that's great if that's your thing. I have no desire to own anything like that. If you enjoy it as much as it sounds like then GREAT but, call them what they are RACE CARS. There is no shame in owning a race car, really it's ok.

I would have a lot more respect for you if you could just agree to disagree or admit that what I have planned will work even if it's not how you would do it. Did all your 9 second "street cars" have solid roller cams? These street cars you have now or had then see/saw how many street miles a year? This is the very simple difference of what we are talking about. You fail to ever prove to me the cars are actually street cars. A car that is registered doesn't make it a street car. A street car gets driven on the street, that makes it a street car. I would be more impressed if you said you had an 11 second car that you drive 8,000 miles a year. Having a 8 second car that gets driven 50 miles a year is not impressive (to me).

My 70 Nova will weigh over 3000lbs but, my 1961 Skylark will probably end up lighter than the Nova. It was ~2600lbs stock. I took out a lot of weight but, also added a lot of weight. I won't know what it weighs until I'm done. 2800lbs would be nice.

You're the "MAN" Bill, at least in your mind and that's all that matters.

Do I need to make a poll to see if you will bite again?

I'm sure you're alright in person and I could learn some stuff from you but, not the way you come accross online. I do like this though, it's entertaining.

Not sure how this thread got so far of course and I'm surprised it won't die.

Sorry to those of you that are reading this, much of which is just nonsense. I hope you are at least getting a chuckle or two out of it if nothing else.

One thing he really wants and desires is to have the last word, it's in his personality so as long as I respond he will keep coming back.

[camaroman7d]

Don,
I might just pick your brain on the chassis tuning. Thanks for the offer.

Would like to help out if I can. Let me know.

Each and every one of them wish they still had streetable hot rods. When they are on the trailer I cruise right by driving my car. They fell into the I want to be faster than the next guy trap, now they have cars they can't really enjoy.

Been through the same thing. I've built a few cars in the past that I eventually didn't drive much on the street. I would always end up selling it and doing another. So I built a race car and went racing. When that got old I sold it, and just started helping people out who needed it. Last 4 years or so I have been in the dirt scene. The most popular saying in the pits there is,..." noone else is doing that. " I love proving that it still works. I've blended some Drag racing chassis ideas into the mix and have had real good luck with it. If Mark , the owner/drive, is out on the track he is always the smoothest car out there. Smooth is fast in circle track. Another thing I really like is when someone is looking at what we are doing with the chassis and comes up saying, " that won't work. " But it does. Seems like the circle track scene has a lot of room for some different ideas.

Looking foward to helping out if I can.

Don


The Skylark is my first 4 link car so, I know I will be able to use some advice. I really apreciate the offer and I will take you up on it. I hope to have paint on it in the Spring and scale it to see where I'm at. I'll be in touch for sure. I will of course PM you so you don't have to dig through this stuff.

The Nova is getting Cal Tracs and split monos. I just have to get back out there and get to work the parts are on hand. These set-up have been proven and there are some very fast cars running Cal Tracs. For the front suspension I bought AFCO steel bushings and I am machining them so, I can use Delrin and make my own bushings this will free up the front end travel a lot. I'll be done with the bushings today. I was shocked to see how much the stock rubber bushings bound up.

I grew up watching dirt track racing it can be a lot more exciting that watching drag racing. Those guys punish their cars like no other form of racing.

[lun40119]

You two fight like brothers. Both have an excellent point, I however, I tend to go with Bill on this one, I cant stand to get beat. Don't get me wrong, I know there are millions of cars that are quicker than mine, I just can't stand to race one and lose. Bracket racing is ok to lose, that isn't really head to head, but when you are at a fun night racing buddies heads up, and you lose..............ouch. Takes a while to live it down.

[want-a-be]

this will be a real 1965 GTO that I will drive just like my 68 Camaro as well as my 72 Vega, (which is now @ ARC Races cars in PA getting a complete chassis upgrade for going real fast).

I think GM made to vega only cause they made such a great race car...lol...Thats what I had also.

Don

[camaroman7d]

this will be a real 1965 GTO that I will drive just like my 68 Camaro as well as my 72 Vega, (which is now @ ARC Races cars in PA getting a complete chassis upgrade for going real fast).

I think GM made to vega only cause they made such a great race car...lol...Thats what I had also.

Don

I love Vegas. I've owned a couple I just wish the cars were built better. The whole car is made of sheet metal. They are very good looking hot rods and race cars.

[camaroman7d]

You two fight like brothers. Both have an excellent point, I however, I tend to go with Bill on this one, I cant stand to get beat. Don't get me wrong, I know there are millions of cars that are quicker than mine, I just can't stand to race one and lose. Bracket racing is ok to lose, that isn't really head to head, but when you are at a fun night racing buddies heads up, and you lose..............ouch. Takes a while to live it down.


You don't have anything to "live down" if you don't talk a bunch of smack to start with. Bill and myself are not fighting (at least I'm not). Just not going to let anyone tell me what's best for me. I'm funny that way. Like I said as far as race engines go, I'm sure I could learn a thing or two from him. I don't know all the answers and never will. I'm also not closed minded and full of myself. I do know what has worked for me before and I know what kind of cars I enjoy. You can't argue with someones opinion, you don't have to agree with it but, you can't argue what someone thinks.

I don't live and die for drag racing or beating my friends. I have more fun building the cars than anything else. I don't own race cars so, I am not in competition with anyone but, myself.

What do you win at the track? There is no real money involved unless you are putting up a bet (at least that's the case in my area). I win more money bowling competitively than most guys do drag racing. So what's all the excitement about? Bragging rights?

Once again my cars are street cars not race cars. If they were race cars then yes, I would be worried about who I could beat and if I could hang in whatever class I was racing. Since both of them will spend 99% of the time on the street that's where my attention is focused (reliability, enjoyment, respectable performamce).

If you can't take getting beat you better get rich or learn to handle getting spanked every once in a while, it's going to happen. Even the fastest car isn't the one that always wins. If you want to compete with friends see who can get the best reaction time, see who is most consistent. Those are things to "compete" with. Things you have control over and that are physical challenges. The guy that goes fastest usually just spent more money than the slower guy (not always but, in many cases). That doesn't really show talent.

[Awesome Bill]

Yeah, saved this one from the crusher. Your right, they are a tin can stamed out. ARC (Warren Frank) one of the best chassis builders in the world, is making it full round tube, tubular a arms, 4 link, were leaving all the stock dash, floor as much as possible, stretched the rear fenders and front fenders, were putting a 462CI SBC 14° Pro Action with 2 stages and hope to double up on the 8.50 class and drag radial? The radial class is out of control now and 7.60's is a normal e.t. I plan to have it done late this year early next.

[Awesome Bill]

were not fighting or even arguing, he love one thing I love another thing but both are still the same thing? Racing is racing and going faster, someone will always go faster. We all know that. What we do win is pretty good with the 8.50 class. $1000.00 for the win, only 4 rounds of competition and 1 qualifying pass for me. But, take in the fuel the Columbia with the 500 Detroit, the big trailer, entry food and even if you do win you might walk away with $500. That does not matter. It is the competition your racing and doing it better than the other guy. This type of racing is controlled and the best driver, car wins. No one wins all the time, but it is killer when you win a big one!

[Trmnatr]

Camaroman,

I would like to answer your questions here, if you need firther help i can talk to you or e-mail you

Solid rollers do not just go out on the street,, There are many reasons solid rollers go out on the street and im gonna cover a few that i try to watch as an engine builder

1) you must have alot of seat pressure such as 270 seat for a street car, more for a race car with a solid roller - Too little pressure will kill the lifters faster than too much pressure. One of the most important things in selecting the proper spring after seat pressure is the "pounds per inch" sprin rate - My opinion is it must be 600-ish for a street car and now less than 650 pounds per inch spring rate. If your using an old school roller grind sure you can get away with less spring such as 550 sprine rate and 250 seat/650 open but thats not the case with 99% of the profiles out there

2) you must idle nothing below 1,100rpm with a solid roller

3) you must use a high quality oil such as synthetic that doesnt break down and flows well such as 10w30

4) you have to keep the oil clean, you dont want gas/dirt in the oil which is likely on a street car but not a race car

5) many street cars get moisture in the oil because they dont run a header e-vac due to mufflers and they cant run a pcv valve,,,, Now you build moisture in the crank case and if you dont let it get very hot it will not burn the moisture out thus my wear in my opinion on the roller lifters

6) pushrods,,,, an engine with a given cam may need 800 pounds open and may have good valve control with 3/8" pushrods but with 7/16" pushrods would have superior valve control with the same open pressure - i have seen it

7) i know on race engines i filter the oil going in the engine, How many street guys do this ?

8) i use race oil, Royal Purple, $12+ a quart, are street guys spending this much for quality oils ?

9) how many people buy into using restrictors in the block? This should NEVER be done with a solid roller as it wears the lifters due to increased hear and the valve springs dont get cooled as well thus hot lifters and floating valves, both together are just looking to break parts

10) are the street guys using the $350 special solid roller lifters or the Pro Series $550+ roller lifters ? In my opinion if your roller lifters dont cost $550 retail your in for a challenge making them live (Crane Pro Series are great, Morel/Lunati Pro, Select Comp Lifters etc) - really, in lifters you get what you pay for

I think i have given you some idea as to why solid roller lifters fail on the street, if you would like to talk about your situation or have any other questions shoot or PM me

[Awesome Bill]

sounds like someone is reading my post also. I could not of said it better except for the oil. Most synthetics don't like heat and actually burn down quicker. Only a few are really good. There is no such thing as dirt in the oil in any engine, if there is, you should of took a bath before assembling or kept the engine sealed up when installing. Gas is a different thing but you should have the right a/f ratio to start with. The VR1 Vavoline works very well also in the 10w30 weight. I do run the Royal Purple but that oil is very acidic. Wonder why. LAE Synthetics are killer as well as only a handful because of the polymere additives, they are junk.

[Trmnatr]

sounds like someone is reading my post also. I could not of said it better except for the oil. Most synthetics don't like heat and actually burn down quicker. Only a few are really good. There is no such thing as dirt in the oil in any engine, if there is, you should of took a bath before assembling or kept the engine sealed up when installing. Gas is a different thing but you should have the right a/f ratio to start with. The VR1 Vavoline works very well also in the 10w30 weight. I do run the Royal Purple but that oil is very acidic. Wonder why. LAE Synthetics are killer as well as only a handful because of the polymere additives, they are junk.


your post a few above mine is one we can actually agree on

when i refer to dirt, im talking junk from the reather cap being removed, dirt from the oil not being filtered etc

Nope, not reading your posts, that has ben our way for years,,,,,,,,

[Awesome Bill]

FYI, oil filters do not filter oil, they are what I call ride by collectors. That is why most are pleated paper or cottom or like Amzoil uses a big roll of toliet paper.

Any engine with a bypass, only filters about 10-20% of its oil and nothing on cold starts. The bypass valve pops open with any more than 10 lbs of oil pressure. Couple that with cold thick oil, you got problems if any dirt is in your oil and usually is right at the pick up when starting.

Nothing but stainless steel mess style cartridge style filters actually filter oil. Most have an internal bypass units that are set around 60 psi to open. At least the ones we have found work the best, Pure Power, work @ 60psi But the filters will flow and clean any debri, foreign material that usally is connected to new engine break in. After a engine has been broke in properly, there really is not need for the oil to be filtered. Now we have have to take into consideration of long term use as with our every day cars, and in the racing industry, particles rubbing off from extreme power usuage that produces their own type of abbrasive particle.

If you think paper filters actually let oil threw at a rate the bypass will not open, check it out for yourself. Take a filter, cut it open, pour any oil on it and see what happens. Boom the bypass runs open. Plug the bypass, and you have a oil filter that has the paper cartridge cheap unit that is being collapsed from not being able to get oil threw. Most blow holes in the paper to let oil threw and tha pushes the mess into the engines internals.

I have run them both ways and sometimes you can get away with it. Sometimes the filter collapses in and the driver is doing his driving duties and then you have a problem.

Either way, ring coatings coming off the rings, such as the moly style, hell fire is not but a little better, head and block casting material, cork, rubber and silcone that is inside the engine, distributor gears, flat tappet design camshafts and lifters, are the culprits. For this reason alone, we have filters. But good filters actually let the oil pass threw without opening the bypass, paper filters do not do this! Either way, if the debri does get caught in the filters pleates, it usually is stuck there for lifetime. So you have a 10 to 1 or 90% chance of the particals passing threw the open bypass on cold starts. Not very good odds. 0% with a good oil filter such as Pure Power lifetime filters.

[camaroman7d]

Camaroman,

I would like to answer your questions here, if you need firther help i can talk to you or e-mail you

Solid rollers do not just go out on the street,, There are many reasons solid rollers go out on the street and im gonna cover a few that i try to watch as an engine builder

1) you must have alot of seat pressure such as 270 seat for a street car, more for a race car with a solid roller - Too little pressure will kill the lifters faster than too much pressure. One of the most important things in selecting the proper spring after seat pressure is the "pounds per inch" sprin rate - My opinion is it must be 600-ish for a street car and now less than 650 pounds per inch spring rate. If your using an old school roller grind sure you can get away with less spring such as 550 sprine rate and 250 seat/650 open but thats not the case with 99% of the profiles out there

2) you must idle nothing below 1,100rpm with a solid roller

3) you must use a high quality oil such as synthetic that doesnt break down and flows well such as 10w30

4) you have to keep the oil clean, you dont want gas/dirt in the oil which is likely on a street car but not a race car

5) many street cars get moisture in the oil because they dont run a header e-vac due to mufflers and they cant run a pcv valve,,,, Now you build moisture in the crank case and if you dont let it get very hot it will not burn the moisture out thus my wear in my opinion on the roller lifters

6) pushrods,,,, an engine with a given cam may need 800 pounds open and may have good valve control with 3/8" pushrods but with 7/16" pushrods would have superior valve control with the same open pressure - i have seen it

7) i know on race engines i filter the oil going in the engine, How many street guys do this ?

8) i use race oil, Royal Purple, $12+ a quart, are street guys spending this much for quality oils ?

9) how many people buy into using restrictors in the block? This should NEVER be done with a solid roller as it wears the lifters due to increased hear and the valve springs dont get cooled as well thus hot lifters and floating valves, both together are just looking to break parts

10) are the street guys using the $350 special solid roller lifters or the Pro Series $550+ roller lifters ? In my opinion if your roller lifters dont cost $550 retail your in for a challenge making them live (Crane Pro Series are great, Morel/Lunati Pro, Select Comp Lifters etc) - really, in lifters you get what you pay for

I think i have given you some idea as to why solid roller lifters fail on the street, if you would like to talk about your situation or have any other questions shoot or PM me


I agree with the things you listed. The thing that is not listed is that you need to keep an eye on spring pressure. Lack of spring pressure will beat the lifters up. Once the needle bearings get flat spots on them they are going to fail. Depending on which cam company you talk to they may or may not recommend synthetic oil. I'm not a rookie to the high performance world by any means. I also don't know all the answers. There are many different reasons why roller lifters fail. The technology is getting better and maybe some day soon they will be more streetable. Once again the streetable part is going to be the variable. Streetable to me is not the same as what some other people think is streetable.

For what I am doing there is just no need for a roller cam. Like I said before if I was building a race car I would have a roller cam for sure. I have run a solid roller before. The added expenses, maintenance, and durability, just doesn't make sense for my goals. I already have my cam installed and have for weeks.

Thanks for your input and I respect the way you presented it. I am aware of the things you listed. I also took all that into consideration before deciding to stick with solid flat tappets. If/When I out grow the performance a solid FT can provide I will re-visit the solid roller option. At this point there is absolutely no reason for me to run one.

[camaroman7d]

Yeah, saved this one from the crusher. Your right, they are a tin can stamed out. ARC (Warren Frank) one of the best chassis builders in the world, is making it full round tube, tubular a arms, 4 link, were leaving all the stock dash, floor as much as possible, stretched the rear fenders and front fenders, were putting a 462CI SBC 14° Pro Action with 2 stages and hope to double up on the 8.50 class and drag radial? The radial class is out of control now and 7.60's is a normal e.t. I plan to have it done late this year early next.

were not fighting or even arguing, he love one thing I love another thing but both are still the same thing? Racing is racing and going faster, someone will always go faster. We all know that. What we do win is pretty good with the 8.50 class. $1000.00 for the win, only 4 rounds of competition and 1 qualifying pass for me. But, take in the fuel the Columbia with the 500 Detroit, the big trailer, entry food and even if you do win you might walk away with $500. That does not matter. It is the competition your racing and doing it better than the other guy. This type of racing is controlled and the best driver, car wins. No one wins all the time, but it is killer when you win a big one!

These last two post earned more respect from me than any of your previous posts. The Vega sounds like it will be a serious car to deal with. Post some pictures when it's done. You're right we are not fighting or arguing, we just have different goals and desires. Once we got that ironed out there was really nothing to disagree about. The point I was trying to make is just that, we were talking to totally different things (race car vs. street car). We will probably never agree on what a "street car" really is and that's fine. That is a very touchy topic for many people.

As your other post states you are basically racing for fun and enjoyment (by the time you pay entry fees, tires, fuel, transportation, food). There is not a lot of money to be made for the average drag racer. If you are enjoying it keep doing it until you no longer can or no longer enjoy it. Competing and winning is always fun/rewarding. I do like to compete and win but, my cars are hobbies for me. I enjoy building them and challenging my personal skills. I don't build them to compete. I get just as much out of hoping in a car I built and driving around town or to a cruise as you probably get out of winning a round of racing. I have raced a bit and will race an event or two when I feel the urge but, these cars are being built to drive on the street 99% of the time and to achieve my goal. Once that goal is made, who knows what I might decide to do. The cars will both be legal to run whatever speed/ET I decide to go.

[lun40119]

The original post that I made about "fighting like brothers" was meant as comic relief. I have enjoyed everything about this thread. I am making the jump from a solid flat tappet, to a solid roller in my street car. And I intend on driving the hell out of it, including the Power Tour in June. For us it will be close to 2000 miles round trip. Take care.......

[camaroman7d]

The original post that I made about "fighting like brothers" was meant as comic relief. I have enjoyed everything about this thread. I am making the jump from a solid flat tappet, to a solid roller in my street car. And I intend on driving the hell out of it, including the Power Tour in June. For us it will be close to 2000 miles round trip. Take care.......

Good deal Jake. Make sure you post how your solid roller works out for you. I would also like to know how agressive the grind is. Please post the details (spring rates, oil used, brand of cam and lifters, etc...) I have been trying to keep track of real street cars running solid rollers and see what works and what doesn't in the real world.

[lun40119]

Cam is 50140 Lunati. 276/284@.050. .683/.688 with 1.6's. 308/316@.020. Oil will be VR1 20w50. Lifters will be Lunati(Morel) pressure fed Solid Rollers, and I am not sure on the spring rates. My head porter is setting up the springs for me.

Ill keep you posted.

[Trmnatr]

Cam is 50140 Lunati. 276/284@.050. .683/.688 with 1.6's. 308/316@.020. Oil will be VR1 20w50. Lifters will be Lunati(Morel) pressure fed Solid Rollers, and I am not sure on the spring rates. My head porter is setting up the springs for me.

Ill keep you posted.

For serious and max capability
Manley NexTek 1.640" set up at 300ish seat
PAC/Lunati 1.55" 1226 set up at 300ish seat
1.625" Crane/Manley H-11 set up at 300ish seat

Use no less than 3/8" .145" wall,,, would prefer 7/16" .165" wall dual taper (they will fit with .350"-.400" offset on the intake of Dart heads,, 3/8" will fit with of the top of my head .180" offset crane gold rockers

Shoot for 700 open, should be easy with that lift to get 300/700 with any of those springs - Using titanium retainers ?

That cam will and likes to rpm,,, What engine are you putting that in ?

[Awesome Bill]

be very careful with springs over 1.550" your going to pay!

[lun40119]

Butch, long story short, I bought another car with a 383 700R, so my build options have changed with the Dart SHP 400 I am building. That Cam will go in my SHP 400. The car that goes in had been playing dual roles the last 3 years, since we lost are cruiser to an inattentive teenager with a cell phone. She rear ended us at 45mph, we were stopped. So now that I have found a new cruiser, it gives me a little more options with the 400.

I think you are off on the springs. I talked to Steve at Lunati, and he recommended there new part number 74743, 240@1.900 and598 at 1.250. Will more than likely be the spring going on that cam. He has never done me wrong.

Maybe I am off on this build again, and it won't work worth a pinch on the street, but I am sure there are still going to be tons of stuff out there, driving around with bugs on the winshield that are quicker. We will have to wait and see how it turns out.

Ok, long story not short :D

[want-a-be]

What did you get Jake? PM me if you'd rather not post it here.

Don

[Trmnatr]

be very careful with springs over 1.550" your going to pay!

BULL CRAP BILL ! You may be correct on the Pro 1 but on the Iron Eagle you are so far wrong,,, more than 2 sets of heads have been cut for 1.625" springs this winter with zero problems,, all iron eagle heads

Have done it for along time,,,,,, Then stopped with the Iron Eagles and used 1.55's and didnt get as good high rpm life and did a project that needed 1.625's

Proof,
We had a damaged head we cut out to 1.675" and cut down .125" deeper than the spring seats are and found nothing,,,,,,, Took a punch and beat the living crap out of the casting and guess what ----- nothing

Dart should take this head and use it to show how strong the spring pockets are,,, I threw the head in the back of the truck and now its got some rust there but ill sand blast it in a second and take photos of it so you can see you wrong OR if you would like i will have it at your shop :D My buddy lives up in OC and comes down here alot,,,,,,,,

So, why am i gonna pay ? Im waiting on this,,,,,

[lun40119]

What did you get Jake? PM me if you'd rather not post it here.

Don

Hey Don,

Just picked up a 68 Impala, which is what my wifes car was that we got hit in. It came with the original 327, on a crate and the TH 400 on a crate. 383 in the car, really mild, with a 700r4 behind it. I am going to take the 327 out of the original Impala and redo it with, I am probably thinking a Callies rotater, and a set of Dart heads with some sort of a fuel injection setup. Nothing crazy. The original 275Hp 327 we could get 17/18mpg. I am going to shoot for 22-25, with the overdrive and fuel injection. Kind of sucks there isn't a smaller aluminum head than the 180 from Dart. I will probably end up with them, even if they are not the right head. My wife things that the Aluminum heads are PRETTY. (Kudos to Dart.........YOUR HEADS ARE PRETTY):D :D :D. Any other questions, lemme know. Talk to you soon.

By the way, I just finished a rebuild on Lil Bros SBC. Friggen Flat Tappet went round.

[Trmnatr]

Butch, long story short, I bought another car with a 383 700R, so my build options have changed with the Dart SHP 400 I am building. That Cam will go in my SHP 400. The car that goes in had been playing dual roles the last 3 years, since we lost are cruiser to an inattentive teenager with a cell phone. She rear ended us at 45mph, we were stopped. So now that I have found a new cruiser, it gives me a little more options with the 400.

I think you are off on the springs. I talked to Steve at Lunati, and he recommended there new part number 74743, 240@1.900 and598 at 1.250. Will more than likely be the spring going on that cam. He has never done me wrong.

Maybe I am off on this build again, and it won't work worth a pinch on the street, but I am sure there are still going to be tons of stuff out there, driving around with bugs on the winshield that are quicker. We will have to wait and see how it turns out.

Ok, long story not short :D

Jake,

You are on track

Springs will loose 20-30 pounds pressure after a dozen or so runs

I dont go off of suggestions,,,, here are some things to consider when they give you a spring suggestion

-RPM your engine is capable of turning
-how fast your engine will rpm
-how stable your pushrod is
-how heavy your valve weight is effecting valve motion

A guy on speedtalk that PM'd me said with the spring i suggested he gained 300rpm and made more power all the way through the torque curve,,, 358cid drag engine, should be easy to figure out who it was :D

[Trmnatr]

BTW Jake, I have always ran quicker with more spring pressure with more stable pushrods

On my 400 im running so much seat pressure on a std core flat tappet people think i have lost my head but we have well over 200 passes on the cam running 10.40's

We are running 165 seat and a right at 400 open on a std core solid flat tappet

flex of the cam will occour on the roller but its better to have a little flex and excellent valve control than no camshaft flex and horrible valve control

Its a fine balancing act

PS: with any head through 215 runner size i use a .350" offset and at least 3/8" pushrods, 7/16" .165" wall pushrods for the most stable valve control possible with minimal clearancing

[Awesome Bill]

Don't get your can of nuts all bunched up, I was not even talking to you. I was referring to when using a 1.625" spring and proper retainer, with roller rockers especially, you will have to modify them and even with some shaft rockers. With todays springs, 1.550 with the new stuff that Manley has out now is better than their old 1.640" stuff. So the outer diameter of the spring means little to nothing. The spring rate is what is important and of course the installed height being correct and no coil bind.

I have yelled the bigger the push rod the better the stability of the valve train for over 10 years, so your preaching something thats old knowledge. Funny you never mention Titanium valves or retainers?HMMMMMMMMMM as carl does, this is an area that you can pick up more stability and rpm than any over sized stick you hollar about!

So keep the pent up aggression to your self and just answer the questions to the best of your ability. DYNO's, when ever you get one, will show you that its just not putting heavy valve springs and big push rods make power.

[Trmnatr]

Don't get your can of nuts all bunched up, I was not even talking to you. I was referring to when using a 1.625" spring and proper retainer, with roller rockers especially, you will have to modify them and even with some shaft rockers. With todays springs, 1.550 with the new stuff that Manley has out now is better than their old 1.640" stuff. So the outer diameter of the spring means little to nothing. The spring rate is what is important and of course the installed height being correct and no coil bind.

I have yelled the bigger the push rod the better the stability of the valve train for over 10 years, so your preaching something thats old knowledge. Funny you never mention Titanium valves or retainers?HMMMMMMMMMM as carl does, this is an area that you can pick up more stability and rpm than any over sized stick you hollar about!

So keep the pent up aggression to your self and just answer the questions to the best of your ability. DYNO's, when ever you get one, will show you that its just not putting heavy valve springs and big push rods make power.

Are you crazy Bill ?

When using a heavier stainless steel valve you must use more seat, open and rate per inch in order to control the valve

All super stock racers are wrong in proving the 1.64" nextek and the 1.675" nextek work. Why change if it works ??????????

Your post was directed to me, you quoted me

I see why your not on Speedtalk,,,,

[Awesome Bill]

Now you must be just as bad as Carl about this Speed Talk bullcrap, if that is all you have I do know why you taking it up. If you have to say outloud your good, then people must not know! Talk is cheap! Inflamatory statements are meant to insult. Look at my post. If your running a flat tappet camshaft, which you think will turn 7500 rpm with some really non lightweight parts is the appliation, you can't put enough seat pressure on it before it takes the nose right off the camshaft. I am always a proponet of proper seat pressure but the "some is good so more must be better" is not needed with flat tappet camshafts unless you spend a million or so and develope parkerized lobes and special lifters which I am sure you know nothing about. So go on the web and find out and then come back and let us know how much you just learned. Done that 10 years ago and would only use it if the class absolutely required it. Still, you sound like a little girl screaming over nothing.

[Dart Vader]

Now you must be just as bad as Carl about this Speed Talk bullcrap, if that is all you have I do know why you taking it up. If you have to say outloud your good, then people must not know! Talk is cheap! Inflamatory statements are meant to insult. Look at my post. If your running a flat tappet camshaft, which you think will turn 7500 rpm with some really non lightweight parts is the appliation, you can't put enough seat pressure on it before it takes the nose right off the camshaft. I am always a proponet of proper seat pressure but the "some is good so more must be better" is not needed with flat tappet camshafts unless you spend a million or so and develope parkerized lobes and special lifters which I am sure you know nothing about. So go on the web and find out and then come back and let us know how much you just learned. Done that 10 years ago and would only use it if the class absolutely required it. Still, you sound like a little girl screaming over nothing.
If you need to disagree with someone, can you do it without bringing up "that" thread? Any discussion related to it seems to degrade to useless bickering with alarming speed.

[Trmnatr]

Now you must be just as bad as Carl about this Speed Talk bullcrap, if that is all you have I do know why you taking it up. If you have to say outloud your good, then people must not know! Talk is cheap! Inflamatory statements are meant to insult. Look at my post. If your running a flat tappet camshaft, which you think will turn 7500 rpm with some really non lightweight parts is the appliation, you can't put enough seat pressure on it before it takes the nose right off the camshaft. I am always a proponet of proper seat pressure but the "some is good so more must be better" is not needed with flat tappet camshafts unless you spend a million or so and develope parkerized lobes and special lifters which I am sure you know nothing about. So go on the web and find out and then come back and let us know how much you just learned. Done that 10 years ago and would only use it if the class absolutely required it. Still, you sound like a little girl screaming over nothing.

YOUR the one claiming to be the best

im not claiming to be the best,,

10-4, im out and have a nice day

[Awesome Bill]

Never claimed to be the best, just a professional that has been doing it 3 times longer than most who have a ring compressor and a dial caliper and call their selves engine builders. An engine builder is a professional when he does it for his lively hood. Can't play engine builder here with the competition that is just as good and some better. Still, Hobbiest are at best where we where when we actually started.

No one likes being slammed by people who just bring up stuff that has no bearing on what actually had happened. Especially since you or no one else actually knows that deal. So if its none of your business and you actually don't know anything about what it was over, so keep your mouth shut about it. Even if you were privey to the situation with that chick you should still never say anything about it. Not professional @ all. I never attack any ones lively hood! So don't attack mine and we'll be good. Posting your professional opinion means nothing, its just an opinion.

[Trmnatr]

Never claimed to be the best, just a professional that has been doing it 3 times longer than most who have a ring compressor and a dial caliper and call their selves engine builders. An engine builder is a professional when he does it for his lively hood. Can't play engine builder here with the competition that is just as good and some better. Still, Hobbiest are at best where we where when we actually started.

No one likes being slammed by people who just bring up stuff that has no bearing on what actually had happened. Especially since you or no one else actually knows that deal. So if its none of your business and you actually don't know anything about what it was over, so keep your mouth shut about it. Even if you were privey to the situation with that chick you should still never say anything about it. Not professional @ all. I never attack any ones lively hood! So don't attack mine and we'll be good. Posting your professional opinion means nothing, its just an opinion.


I agree, posting your professional opinion means nothing to me

posting my professional opinion means nothing to you

You have your professional opinion, carl has his professional opinion and i have my professional opinion, doesnt matter if they are the same or not. Dont like them, dont read them

Have a Good Day

[camaroman7d]

And How did we end up here?

Moderators feel free to shut this thread down. I basically got the information I needed when I started the post. I don't really see much more useful info here. There's a lot of ego and pride being thrown around but, not stuff people can actually learn from.

Thanks to everyone that offered info I asked for in the begining.

I'll post back once the car is done to let you know if I made my goal with the solid flat tappet :D

[want-a-be]

LOL...I'll have to reread everything just to see what you got out of it. Looking foward to hearing how things turn out.

Don