opinion needed on plan

[HYPR]

Ok here's the skinny: '56 Chevy 210 wieght approx 3800 pounds, Bowtie Overdrive 700R4 stage 3 2200/2400 stall convertor, 12 bolt 4.11 Posi gears spinning 315 Goodyear F1's.
Motor;383 4bolt splayed, TRW Forged 10.1 CR pistons on 5.7" rods
Intake: RPM Air Gap with Holley 770, HEI Dizzy w/8.8 wires. Headers: Flowtech Afterburners 1.625" Tubes (Due to Clearance issues) running through Flowmaster Delta 50's on 2.5" Ceramic coated Pipes
Cam; Comp Xtreme 12-423-8, (XR276HR) 224/230,502/510 w/1.5. My plans are to bump to Comp 1.65 rockers (Comp tech suggestion because I like the street manners of the cam but want to maximize the performance out of it and prefer not to bump the convertor to a higher stall) so new lift will be at 552/561 (1.65 ratio) I think I'll need to clearance the heads for these rockers though, yes/no?
The new heads I am looking at are the Dart Pro1 Platinum 200's.
Ok guys throw Darts (sorry about the punn!) er opinions...:D

[lun40119]

I like it. But I don't think you are going to like that carb. Is it a Street Avenger??? Other than that looks like a nice combo.

[HYPR]

Thanks Jake. I already have the carb and have been running it with the 1.5 rockers on a set of GM heads that have been extremely ported to the max w/peanut valves. The carb gave me fits until I tweaked on it a ton and now with a 1" spacer some jetting and all it is running w/no complaints. Street Avengers run out of the box??? (as advertised) HA, HA, yep after a box of jets and a ton of tweeking!
Other than a ton of Madison Avenue added in they are no different than any other 4150 IMO.
Anyway I am targeting the 500HP/490FT range with this set up and wonder how close I will get.
Bob

[lun40119]

I am thinking it will be shy of that. 450 range. Have you thought of a Vic Jr, or another manifold of the likes????

[want-a-be]

I like most of it. It's a nice combination of parts. I'm not going to look up the cam specs so ...what is the LSA of the cam please?

When you put the new rockers on, make sure you check the piston to valve clearance. If you need help with that I can walk you through it. Should be ok...but you never know. Let me know if you need some help with that. I'd check vacuum before and after changing the rockers.

Myself,...I've never seen a duel plenum out perform an open plenum intake. Doesn't matter what RPM you're at. I'd consider changing it. Especially if you're going to make the move to the 200cc heads, which would be my pick. But that depends on your upper RPM limits. What RPM are you planning on shifting at when you're on it hard?

If you would consider a carb change I'd look at one with the Annular Discharge. I like the way they run better,... but thats JMO. Might as well get 4 corner idle also. Lots better idle control.

What kind of timing numbers are you runnning? I doubt you're having any problems at all. But you can make response a lil better by playing around with it. You'll have to do some work to the HEI but it's simple.

I wouldn't be afraid of up to 3200 stall on the street. I wouldn't want to go any more. 3800-3200 would be my range of choice. Even though you said that you didn't want to change that. I had a 3200 stall in a 64 Chevy 2 back when I was going to College. Drove it back an forth (140 mile round trip ) for 2 years. Never a problem.

Sorry for the long post. But seems like being off make me to chatty Need some help feel free to get ahold of me.

Don

[HYPR]

I like most of it. It's a nice combination of parts. I'm not going to look up the cam specs so ...what is the LSA of the cam please?

When you put the new rockers on, make sure you check the piston to valve clearance. If you need help with that I can walk you through it. Should be ok...but you never know. Let me know if you need some help with that. I'd check vacuum before and after changing the rockers.

Myself,...I've never seen a duel plenum out perform an open plenum intake. Doesn't matter what RPM you're at. I'd consider changing it. Especially if you're going to make the move to the 200cc heads, which would be my pick. But that depends on your upper RPM limits. What RPM are you planning on shifting at when you're on it hard?

If you would consider a carb change I'd look at one with the Annular Discharge. I like the way they run better,... but thats JMO. Might as well get 4 corner idle also. Lots better idle control.

What kind of timing numbers are you runnning? I doubt you're having any problems at all. But you can make response a lil better by playing around with it. You'll have to do some work to the HEI but it's simple.

I wouldn't be afraid of up to 3200 stall on the street. I wouldn't want to go any more. 3800-3200 would be my range of choice. Even though you said that you didn't want to change that. I had a 3200 stall in a 64 Chevy 2 back when I was going to College. Drove it back an forth (140 mile round trip ) for 2 years. Never a problem.

Sorry for the long post. But seems like being off make me to chatty Need some help feel free to get ahold of me.

Don
Well thanks guys. Jake I had considered it but the Victor will loose the bottom end and pick up in the upper RPM range and I am strictly low RPM on this car. Maybe I should have stressed that this car sees the track maybe once a year if that and is mainly a fast cruiser. Heck it has almost 200 pounds of sound deadener in it! :rolleyes:
Hard shift point is 5500 so I am targeting the 1900-5500 range which brings me to Don's input.
The lobe sep is 110 on that cam.
Yep had a 'Cuda with a built 340 back in the day running a 3000 stall. Great at the track sucked on the street cruising.
The '56 is mostly a cruiser with my size 9EEE in it once in awhile.
Presently timing is 32 with the Iron heads and no issues. Idles smooth and response is as good as can get with the Street Avenger with secondary spring kit and jetting installed.
Yep know the carb is the weak link and it will be addressed down the road but for now it has to stay.
I have no issues with Vacuam since I run a Hydraboost so it is no concern for me.
A 4 corner carb with Annular is a good idea.
If the convertor is changed I doubt I will go past 2800/3000 range for this ride.
On the valve to piston clearence I ran this by the Comp Cams tech and he said no problems for sure. I will install some clay and test rotate by hand just to be on the safe side though and yep I know it's a lot of work but less then the damage that can happen if there is a problem.
I have a buddy who for mild builds uses a rough check with math by measuring the piston to cylinder deck then measures the max valve open (target lift) to head deck surface. Says it is a rough quick and easy test but as long as there is some difference it is a good enough test for safety sake on milder built lower compression motors with no deck mods or extreme lift cams and such. I personally have never tried it so I don't know how well it works, but hey I'm open minded.
Unless you have a better easier test you want to share?
Bob

[lun40119]

VP issues do not happen at max lift. When the cam is at max lift the piston is down in the hole. Best to check with puddy like you are thinking. I don't think you are going to have a problem. As far at the intake is concerned I said the Vic JR. I really think you would like it. If 5500 is your red, you might consider 180's. But I would use the 200's if it were mine.

What converter you use all depends on how well you cool the trans. Mine goes 5200 on the transbrake, and I put 6000 miles on it this year.

[want-a-be]

I'm with Jake on the 180s since your going to stay under 5500 rpm. Especially since you're wanting to stay with the duel plane intake. I doubt you miss what you think you'll loose on the bottom end by going to the open plenum, but it's you're build. I'm with Jake on the 200s...but I run my stuff up to 7500 rpm. I like the Rs.

I wouldn't go over 2800 on the stall at considering the use it's going to see. The stall on what you are running should go up a little when the HP/TQ are increased.

The 110 lobe seperation should be ok with what you're wanting to do.

Don

[camaroman7d]

These guys are giving you great advice. If you don't mind me asking, Why are you limiting the RPM to 5500? You are leaving a lot of performance on the table. Your current cam is not going to support much more than 5500 anyway. If you are sticking to your plan (5500 and low stall speed) then the 180's will probably be all you need and I would be looking for torque over HP with the weight of the car and low stall speed. Your headers are going to hold you back anyway and they are perfect for torque. I don't know if changing rockers is going to buy you much if anything, if the RPM range was higher I would say yes but, where the engine operates I don't think you will see much if any gain. Changing the rocker ratio is similar to adding a larger cam, it works great if you are slighlty under cammed. Larger cam typically means more RPM or moving the power curve up, this is exactly what you don't want if you are keeping the upper limit to 5500 RPM (IMO). Making 500HP with an upper RPM limit of 5500 with only 383ci is a tall order.

Now if you stepped up the RPM range I agree with a Vic Jr and a 3000-3200 stall. If you get a good quality stall not one of the low dollar off the shelf units it will be fine on the street. I run a 3500 TCS (Torque Converter Specialist) on the street and have for many years. It is efficient and not super loose, I can cruise on the highway at 2500RPM and it's fine no heat in the tranny (have temp gauge). Stomp on it and it flashes to ~3500 and off I go.

[want-a-be]

oops...didn't see that you guys had posted before I I did my first one here. 500hp at under 5500 RPMs with a 383 might be kinda tough to hit. That firures to 477 #s of torque @ 5500 rpm. So you may get there. But it makes me rethink the 180s. I'd loose the duel plane for sure. Get a double pumper with what I said before.

What casting number GM head are you running? How did they flow?

Do you think the 700r4 will hold up to the power? Last one I had, which was stock and a long time ago, didn't.

I check the P- clearances at 10° btdc on the exhaust valve and 10° atdc on the intake. The 10° is a close proximity to where things will be closest. I usually start 10° before that and check every 2° so I can graph how close things actually get. I use .045" the minum p-v on the intake and .095"n the exhaust. Jake is very correct about the max lift thing.


Don

[HYPR]

Hey guys a ton of really good info, thanks. Yep I guess I should reconsider things a bit and perhaps move up the R’s a bit but I don’t see myself too far past the mid 6K RPM range on this car. That being the case I am not sure the operating range of 3500-8000 on a Victor Jr is the route to go but heck worth looking into.
I had built a 383 with a buddy using a set of AFR 215’s and a Edelbrock 1812 800CFM setting on a Victor Jr. with a Art Carr TH350 with a 3500 Stall spinning a set of 4.56 gears and that thing screamed.
Regarding the Tranny, yep the 700R4’s have quite a checkered past and if you try to push a stock unit much past the 350 HP range you will likely be walking. I have never heard or met anyone running a stock 700 with any luck in any sort of performance car. The newer 4L60E’s are better but still the point is if you are going to push even those much past the mid to upper 400HP and mid 400FT range the tranny needs to be beefed up. The owner of BTO, Steve Holmes knew more about the 700’s and 200’s then anyone else out there. On par with Art Carr as far as “who to go” to but focused on the GM OD tanny’s. I have never had an issue with it and never heard of anyone with one of the BTO units having a problem when operated with in the parameters they set down.
The BTO 700R4 stage 3 is super beefed up and good to about 630HP so I think I am good there. (I tried to add a link but was denied because of my tenure on the forum. :rolleyes: anyway do a google search for the company and you'll find them!)
I have a buddy running one behind a 355 with a 144 at 9psi spinning a set of 4.56’s thru a 3500 stall with no issues and a former neighbor who had one behind a stout 412 that ran in the mid to upper 11’s in a ’55 with no issues ever.
I was looking at the TCI Breakaway converter or the BTO 2800 Extreme Duty if I set up but would like to know more about the TCS, do they have a website?
Regarding the heads I don’t recall the numbers and I didn’t have them worked. They came with the motor when I bought it. The only thing I do recall is they are a 1.94/1.5 valve center bolt head with a ton of porting work done to them. Anyway they are going down the road.
Bob

[want-a-be]

If you step up to the mid 6s for RPM then go with the 200s. They will fly for you. Good to hear you have a good tranny.

Don

[HYPR]

If you step up to the mid 6s for RPM then go with the 200s. They will fly for you. Good to hear you have a good tranny.

Don
Don, yep Steve Holmes was one of the good ones and when we lost him we lost one of the best and it has left a void. His son was well trained and is a very competent and skilled technician and designer, but there are only a few like Chip Foose and his dad or Art and Craig Morrison. Steve was not only the master in the knowledge arena he was a master at marketing and business much like the Morrison's and the Foose's.
I'll be calling BTO to talk about the TC. I wish there was a smaller diameter TC within the 2800 range. Ah another trek to pursue. Another direction I need some advice on is valve springs, any opinions on Beehive's?
I also am at least considering Titanium retainers.
Hey just a thought no commitments. :rolleyes::D
Bob

[want-a-be]

I have no experience witht he behive springs at all. I can see no problems with the retainer deal. I run em on my stuff.

Don

[lun40119]

Whatever you decide on the TC, I would say away from the one size fits all shelf stuff. I think you mentioned a Break Away. I had a "Big Bad Blue NITROUS tough guy converter" that I absolutely destroyed with a transbrake. When I bought it it was advertised as a 3600 Nitrous Converter. When I was done with it, it was a 5500rpm, 20+% slipping piece of wall art. Waste of 500ish bucks man.

[lun40119]

Don, yep Steve Holmes was one of the good ones and when we lost him we lost one of the best and it has left a void. His son was well trained and is a very competent and skilled technician and designer, but there are only a few like Chip Foose and his dad or Art and Craig Morrison. Steve was not only the master in the knowledge arena he was a master at marketing and business much like the Morrison's and the Foose's.
I'll be calling BTO to talk about the TC. I wish there was a smaller diameter TC within the 2800 range. Ah another trek to pursue. Another direction I need some advice on is valve springs, any opinions on Beehive's?
I also am at least considering Titanium retainers.
Hey just a thought no commitments. :rolleyes::D
Bob

LT1 guys are loving them. My wifes 3.4 litre Chevy has them. Gm is using them for a reason. Any way to lighten the VT up is good. I have never used them on a build.

[Awesome Bill]

This is jmo here, whatever you do, don't put a double pumper on this engine. These guys are thinking drag racing where you can go to 4500 to 5000 rpm with a loose converter. Ofcourse if you done that, you would burn that 700r4 up in about 1 pass.

Another thing they have forgot is that you have massive amounts of rotating mass, very bad for drag racing. The 700r4 has about 60 extra pounds. The second thing is never go with a single plane manifold with this type of hot rod.
1. its very heavy
2. it does not cut the wind it more or less acts like a sheet of plywood!
3. you have a low stall
4. You won't make any power over 5500 any way
5. Most likely you have a stock 3/8 or even 5/16 fuel line. That will only support 300-400 real hp.
6. With any hyd camshaft, when you use the higher ratios, always add 1° for every ratio so be careful with the duration factor, this will also kill bottom end.
7. With any hydraulic cam, you do not make any power over 5500 and if you think so, take it to a dyno and watch it fall like a dead tree!

I like the lift idea because the head will do better because of the porting you have and the new head will work right up to .600. I think you have plenty and will work fine. The 200's are a little big but that really won't matter much because your never going to use all the head could support especially with closed exhuast.

If you ask me, I would of used the 570cfm S/Ave. If you do the math with closed exhaust and 5500 rpm, you don't need it and it will hurt the shift point recovery pull back time with the large carb.

Put a single plane intake, large set of heads and you will need flea power to ride that dog! Keep it low rpm like you planned and you'll be fine. We are not talking about a 69 Camaro here, we are talking about a old heavy truck.
Check the piston to valve with a dial indictor and a light valve checking spring. If playdooooooo is all you have, then be careful.

[HYPR]

Bill,
Thanks for the input. Some good points there. I think you’re a bit closer to understanding what the present build and the goal.
Let me clear up a few points the ride is a ’56 chevy 2 door sedan not a truck although it does have the aerodynamics of a barn. Next the fuel line is ½” full length. As I ran the Formula for AF requirements and the calculations 500HP/.257/8=243 which closely matches a few of the 195cc to 200cc heads at .400 which unless I am mistaking is most of the life of the cam and what I have always heard is the best number to focus on when looking at AF.
I am aware that as the rocker ratio increases lift it also alters the duration any where between 2-4 degrees. This is part of the reason I am considering moving up on the stall but I would prefer to stay in the 3000 or under range.
Regarding the intake manifold, I am always open minded but as I stated a range of 3500-8000 is not where this ride will live it’s life. The plan from the beginning was 2000-5800 and has varied very little off that so unless I am mistaking the RPM Air Gap is dead on for this application.
Regarding the 570 S/Ave. I don’t understand what are you referring to here? The carb? I have never heard of anyone using a 570 on a 383 and never seen any pro or crate builds with anything that small. I had one buddy who despite the builder’s recommendation dropped a 650 on and the thing fell on it’s face. He switched to a 750 and the motor came alive. All the builds I have done on stroker motors have used 750’s-770’s. Edelbrock on their 460HP 383 uses one of their 800’s and every calculation I have seen places the range for a 383 between 725-780cfm so I think I will stick with the 770 for now.
I had considered doing the checking first with the clay (I have had success in past builds using it) and then if I am still in doubt going the dial indicator route. I shouldn’t really have any clearance issues since we are dealing with a standard deck and a piston to deck clearance of better than .017”. Both the Comp tech support and the Dart Tech guys felt there would be no issues at either a 1.6 or a 1.65 ratio. But heck better safe than sorry right?
I also did some research on similar builds to mine and T&L builds my identical motor with the same cam in both a 1.5 rocker and a 1.6 rocker ratio version using the Dart 200cc Pro1 Platinum's. They also build a verion with the Comp XR282HR in both a 1.5 and 1.6 rocker version. The only variable in the equasion is they stick with the 72cc chamber head where as I am looking at the 64cc.
Either way the lift on the XR282HR is 544/555 @1.6 with a duration of 230/236 with a RPM range of 2200-5800. If and this is a big if I step over the 1.6's and go with the 1.65 I would be at 552/561 and even if you were to add as much as 4 degrees to the duration I would be 228/234 (Jim Hand Racing noted an increase of 3 degrees when going from 1.5 to 1.65) which would place me between the 1900-5600 where I am now to under 2200-5800 which is still within the range I want to be.
BTW, on the XR282HR Comp Cams recommends a stall of 2000 just like the Comp Cam XR276HR I have and I am presently running a 2200-2400 so I think I am still ok but again a 2800 stall is not out of the question down the road.
I will call T&L and ask them what experiance they have with the same builds using a 1.65 rocker.
Bob

[want-a-be]

Back when I owned a dyno I had a street stock customer who was going from a cast iron to aluminum intake. The rules had changed in the class on the intakes. But the hyd cam and vacuum rule hadn't. The Edelbrock Air Gap intakes were brand new that year. So I bought one just to dyno on this engine. The change from the well ported cast intake to the Air Gap was very much worth the change. But testing wasn't finished...we put one of the smaller Vic Jr open plenum intakes on it and the the engine picked up as much as the change from cast to the Air Gap did. Needless to say...the Air Gap went back into the box. Hence my opinion on duel plenum intakes. Don't have the numbers cause that computer is long gone and I wasn't able to retrieve data from it and I'm not going to say ( here )what my feeble memory thinks the numbers were.

As I remember though...that engine didn't see much over 6krpm either.

The older Scorpion intakes were rated lower in the RPMs. I had one on an old street engine and loved it. If you have a friend who has an old Vic jr laying around you ought to give it a try just to prove me wrong. You'll only be out time and gaskets. Sounds like a cheap test to me. If you did the intake gaskets right you wouldn't even be out the gaskets.

Don

[Awesome Bill]

Very simple easy equasion that is pretty much dead on with open headers. 383x55=21065/.3456=609.519 cfm @100% ve! We have dyno tested the 750 and 770 and from 2000 to about 4500, the torque is down as well as the hp. You can not even get the engine to run with a mechanical secondary unit under 2500 and make any torque. The engine does not require that much air so this slows the air speed down to nothing, the engine goes lean and you have a dog.

As far as a tight converter, tall gear and tire your missing the point. The smaller carb runs longer and spread further where your particular application is used. So what someone says this made more peak power, that only means something is you leave @ that point or slightly lower and never fall back under that.

See if Richard will tell you how much HP is lost if his Pro Stock Driver misses the shift by as little as 100 rpm! (Erica Enders would do it better) You will be amazed. So if you struggle to get to the higher hp or torque #, you will always struggle longer getting there producing slower e.t. Its impossible to run faster when your window of power is a lot lower for a lot longer period trying to get to peak. jmo

We just dyno tested a stock bottom end 355 with 9/1 compression, a 12-212-2 hyd Comp Cam a set of double hump 462 ungraded to 2.02x1.60 heads, (would not of put the 2.02 in but the seats were worn and the 2.02 put it right back on top and I relieved the combustion chamber to do it properly), A performer rpm eps intake with a 600 cfm second carb, hei distributor, 93 octane gas and 34° total timing. @ 2500 rpm we had over 400lbs torque and peak hp @ 5100 with 360hp. the torque curve was the flattest I have seen. Now the bottom end was on the 2 barrel and the secondary came fully in around 4000 rpm with a nice gentle roll to wot. We did not make any more power with 36° timing. This proves the old combustion chamber is still pretty efficient with the stock valve job we used. We did clean the bowls up and removed any casting flash.

With the 383, our torque curve is above 450 and the hp is @ 445 same rpm. So if with 100% ve, we never get that no matter what, you can throw all the 700+ cfm at it you want. It won't use it unless you get your engine up there where the power is the same when the cross over happens. We run class rules of 9:1 361 sbc for years and our 650 4777- whatever was the standard. Even when we did run the 750, it was illegal, the car suffered off the corner and lap times went down.
Just because someone put a 650 on and it fell on its face just means the 650 was not correctly calibrated or most likely was hacked up!