are thier any pontiac guys out thier??

[snakeeater1968]

i've gotten into a big debate with my old man (dad)about what is the most lethal way to build power in a fire bird....he's dead set on sticking with a steel block and running kauffman heads....we have blown up no less then 6 pontiac motors and can't seam to have them hold together...last motor that blew up was a buttler performance pontiac motor....last motor was 700 hp and ran great but blew up at pontiac nationals..it didn't even make through 1 year of racing it..all the motors run great then BANG!!! thier goes a rod....any suggestions about blocks or setups...he's looking at an lms block??? but i told him he may want to run a dart big m block and big chief heads, he calls it sacralidge to run anything other then a pontiac in a pontiac....i'm sick of watching the thing blow motors....we have rev limiters and never take them over 5,600... all the best parts in the top and bottom end nitrited crank ect....but it still keeps spilling it all over the track.....my novas motor is 12 years old....this year i put new heads a cam and timing chain on it and i'm back at the track....

any thought from anyone would be great....
he doesn't want any power adders..." it's all motor or nothing"

Snake eater

[want-a-be]

he doesn't want any power adders..." it's all motor or nothing"

My kind of guy. If you can't make it honest why try....lol

When the rods are breaking, where are they breaking at? Are the big ends blue? What do the bearings look like. Do they all break rods? If so, are they all pretty much the same way?

Get ahold of me sometime and we'll see what we can come up with.

Don

[snakeeater1968]

he doesn't want any power adders..." it's all motor or nothing"

My kind of guy. If you can't make it honest why try....lol

When the rods are breaking, where are they breaking at? Are the big ends blue? What do the bearings look like. Do they all break rods? If so, are they all pretty much the same way?

Get ahold of me sometime and we'll see what we can come up with.

Don

hey don, thanks for taking a look at our problem....it has snapped the crank in the last motor but mostly it spins rod bearings...the crank that snaped was an eagle 4340 rated at 900 hp it broke after the #4 cylender it was a 400 punched out to469" it ran awsome till the crank snapped he also said it cracked the whole block in 2...:confused: the motor that blew at the pontiac nationals was a 455 stroked to 474 dad said something about the rods maybe failing at the piston, motor was still running with 2 small holes in the oil pan and it was smoking like hell....it had 1,000 dollar crowler rods in it...i just talked to dad on the phone he said that dave crawford built the motor out of alabama or tennessee had all the best parts 15,000 motor...original ram air 4 heads ported and flowed....needless to say we have lots of parts laying around....i will pm you his email address he would like to talk to you about running in the 8.50 to 9.0 range...he has his deamons to beat like i have mine...LOL....as for the car it has a fab9 rear end full roll cage and then some sub frame conectors tubular stuports....and alot of other stuff...he thinks he wants to build a 540 or a 572 pontiac...he wants to make 850 to 1,000 hp on the motor and plans on spending around 15 large to get thier....but he already has so many parts and intakes and carbs and heads...he dropped a valve on the ram air 3 heads that are the original heads that came with the car...i told him that you may be able to help him fix those....and help him square away the chasey to free up some speed...he's looking at an IA2 block??? he's been spending 15 grand on a motor every other year it seams like....sorry it's so long...

thanks for the help don

jeff

[Awesome Bill]

Jeff, a Pontiac engine does not know its a Pontiac engine, neither does an Olds, Buick, Chevy, Ramber etc. Just because you can't keep an engine together means 1 of 2 things?
1. You need another doctor
2. you don't know what your doing wrong and you keep doing it. I would try both.

I have been building Pontiacs since I was 15, thats when it all started. thats almost 35 years ago. The Pontiac like every other engine has its stock limitations when stock stuff is used. For example, the stock cast rods are junk, but will run 700 hp for years if 2 things are maintained. I have only blown up 1 428 Pontiac in my life where it killed everything but still had heads left.

I build crate Pontiacs engine all the time and people use them in every day street cars. We use the stock 2 bolt 400 & 455 blocks and have never seen a failure over 600 hp. I bet your dad runs solid motor mounts? If you don't know what that means, your engine builder is behind times. Its like a good doctor when your sick, he ask a lot of questions!

I can tell your Rev Limiter is being used incorrectly and I won't even go into that.

Any time you spin a bearing, you have an assembly problem even before your engine is started. It could be break in but I doubt it even if you only used 10w30 oil to assemble with. I don't believe it is detonation becasue I have detonated the pistons right out of engines on the dyno and the bearings looked like brand new. Did not do it on purpose, just used the 20° timig mark for 0.

And ofcourse, if you give a monkey a Caddy, he most likely can get it started but I will assure you he will puts some dents in her real quick, Read between the lines, I am being nice.

There is no reason that you would have 5-10 Pontiac engines blow up other than abuse or your engine people lack basic skills. Like I said, we have used Scat, Ohio, Eagle, RPM, etc etc for years and come across junk I would not assemble for my next competitor. But that is the engine assemblers job to not assemble something that will not last. With Pontiacs and their big engine bearings, you have to have clearences that are dead on every time. Like I said before, the engine does not respond to what it is called.

With the new aftermarket killer steel blocks, we are now producing 565" of Pure Pontiac with no problems to date with real Pontiac parts, not Big Chief stuff, (they are not Pontiac but Chevy) and we are working on 600" stuff in the near future.

If you want a killer Pontiac let me know, it will be your last one and we are now getting 900 hp plus from them with the heads available. Pontiac, block, heads, crank, timing cover, intake etc. PURE PONTIAC.

We just had a customer come in with the same junk your dad has, blown up parts. We found the mains to have under .002 and the rods were even tighter with the Eagle crank and rods. Ofcourse he spun the bearings with no problem at all. When the engine heated up even before he ran it, it needed 16 volt stuff to start it. The engine builder told him the engine needed to wear in! Splayed Cap 4 bolt main, lifter valley reinforced 455 killer stuff. Can you believe that, like it will clearence itself. The first time he ran it a little at the cruzin, it locked up.

We traded all his stuff in and gave him a brand new 632 BBC that will take tons of NOS but his engine made 1067 with conventional BBC parts. He loves it and gave me his Pontiac parts for almost nothing. I took all his junk, fixed the block, repaired his broken fully cnc ported Edelbrock heads, put a set of AERC BBC Rods (mine), put the compression @ 10:1 and the engine went 617 @ 5200 and 621lb @ 4800, Flattest torque curve I have ever seen. The engine went to a 68 Firebird with stock gearing runs 11.90's and all under 5000 rpm.

I really love Pontiacs because every one loves an old GTO. But even with the best of parts, no engine will do what it can not do if it is not assembled with the proper parts and machine work. There are 200 times more Chevy's that blow up every day for the same reason. Don't hear any one blaming Chevy. If your dad is serious, I will point him in the right direction with the complete proven package from the engine to the rear tire. Like I said, everyone is having fun but your Dad is still breaking very good parts? Get the picture. If there is one engine I would specialize in above Pontiac, it would be Rambler. The Chevys and Fords are our main production line, but the Odd ball stuff, even Caddy should not be counted out. JMO

[snakeeater1968]

Jeff, a Pontiac engine does not know its a Pontiac engine, neither does an Olds, Buick, Chevy, Ramber etc. Just because you can't keep an engine together means 1 of 2 things?
1. You need another doctor
2. you don't know what your doing wrong and you keep doing it. I would try both.

I have been building Pontiacs since I was 15, thats when it all started. thats almost 35 years ago. The Pontiac like every other engine has its stock limitations when stock stuff is used. For example, the stock cast rods are junk, but will run 700 hp for years if 2 things are maintained. I have only blown up 1 428 Pontiac in my life where it killed everything but still had heads left.

I build crate Pontiacs engine all the time and people use them in every day street cars. We use the stock 2 bolt 400 & 455 blocks and have never seen a failure over 600 hp. I bet your dad runs solid motor mounts? If you don't know what that means, your engine builder is behind times. Its like a good doctor when your sick, he ask a lot of questions!

I can tell your Rev Limiter is being used incorrectly and I won't even go into that.

Any time you spin a bearing, you have an assembly problem even before your engine is started. It could be break in but I doubt it even if you only used 10w30 oil to assemble with. I don't believe it is detonation becasue I have detonated the pistons right out of engines on the dyno and the bearings looked like brand new. Did not do it on purpose, just used the 20° timig mark for 0.

And ofcourse, if you give a monkey a Caddy, he most likely can get it started but I will assure you he will puts some dents in her real quick, Read between the lines, I am being nice.

There is no reason that you would have 5-10 Pontiac engines blow up other than abuse or your engine people lack basic skills. Like I said, we have used Scat, Ohio, Eagle, RPM, etc etc for years and come across junk I would not assemble for my next competitor. But that is the engine assemblers job to not assemble something that will not last. With Pontiacs and their big engine bearings, you have to have clearences that are dead on every time. Like I said before, the engine does not respond to what it is called.

With the new aftermarket killer steel blocks, we are now producing 565" of Pure Pontiac with no problems to date with real Pontiac parts, not Big Chief stuff, (they are not Pontiac but Chevy) and we are working on 600" stuff in the near future.

If you want a killer Pontiac let me know, it will be your last one and we are now getting 900 hp plus from them with the heads available. Pontiac, block, heads, crank, timing cover, intake etc. PURE PONTIAC.

We just had a customer come in with the same junk your dad has, blown up parts. We found the mains to have under .002 and the rods were even tighter with the Eagle crank and rods. Ofcourse he spun the bearings with no problem at all. When the engine heated up even before he ran it, it needed 16 volt stuff to start it. The engine builder told him the engine needed to wear in! Splayed Cap 4 bolt main, lifter valley reinforced 455 killer stuff. Can you believe that, like it will clearence itself. The first time he ran it a little at the cruzin, it locked up.

We traded all his stuff in and gave him a brand new 632 BBC that will take tons of NOS but his engine made 1067 with conventional BBC parts. He loves it and gave me his Pontiac parts for almost nothing. I took all his junk, fixed the block, repaired his broken fully cnc ported Edelbrock heads, put a set of AERC BBC Rods (mine), put the compression @ 10:1 and the engine went 617 @ 5200 and 621lb @ 4800, Flattest torque curve I have ever seen. The engine went to a 68 Firebird with stock gearing runs 11.90's and all under 5000 rpm.

I really love Pontiacs because every one loves an old GTO. But even with the best of parts, no engine will do what it can not do if it is not assembled with the proper parts and machine work. There are 200 times more Chevy's that blow up every day for the same reason. Don't hear any one blaming Chevy. If your dad is serious, I will point him in the right direction with the complete proven package from the engine to the rear tire. Like I said, everyone is having fun but your Dad is still breaking very good parts? Get the picture. If there is one engine I would specialize in above Pontiac, it would be Rambler. The Chevys and Fords are our main production line, but the Odd ball stuff, even Caddy should not be counted out. JMO

i didn't know how serious dad was at geting his car into the mid 5's in the 1/8 and 8.50's in the quarter till i chated with him and don last night. i didn't even know you liked pontiacs bill..LOL.. i think they are going to build a 577" all pontiac motor dad wants 600 cubic inches but he may have to go with the 4.6 bore and 4.75 stroke...dad got all fired up when he saw how much don knows about tweaking motors and tuneing in the chasey...he was ready to write a check last night...dads request was i want 1,000 hp don't realy care what size it takes to get it but i want it on all motor...no juice no blower all motor...and he doesn't realy care to much how much it cost..and i want to run like i said mid 5's in the 1/8 and 8.50's in the 1/4....all of us kids are grown and married and having grand kids now.... he's a retired machine repair from ford and is eager to learn how to build an 8.50 car... when don was explaining where we went wrong on a few things he could see how valuable it is to have someone who has been down the track a few times....dad told don last night if he can meet those goals...he has anothr motor to build and more on the way...with a budget of 15 - 20 grand should be a bitchen motor!!! yes, we do know what solid motor mounts are and we do have the motor chained down.... last motor was built by dave crawford out of tennessee ever heard of him ??? spent 15 grand on the motor, new motor will either have a mr-1 block or a IA 2 block no more half a$$en the motor...looking for a good sheet metal intake as well....i'm sure don is on top of it... he took the time to talk to us both last night for about 6 hours ended up being till 0300...to try and narrow down the problems we are having and how to fix them...not many people i know would do that for someone they have never met face to face...once dad was conviced he knew what he was talking about he asked him to cruch some numbers and get him a price...with dad that means one thing...he's ready to go and spend some money...should haul the mail....i accept that i am still a novice at trying to go fast and still have alot to learn about building race cars... dad has been around a long time this is not his first rodeo... he's built alot more motors and cars then i have and been racing alot more then i have...i'm proud as well and choose not to ask him alot of the questions that i post on here....i feel that if i don't know how something works that someone else may have the same problem and learn from my posts as i learn from reading all the questions and coments others have made on here...i think out loud...i was taught growing up speak softly and carry a big stick...dad is a different animal all together...he would not take the sarcasum as well as i do...he would turn right around and hit the door the first time someone tried to speak down to him...

thanks for all the advice bill i know your one of the best engine builders out thier

have a great holiday

jeff

[snakeeater1968]

i was wandering what the rule difference and requirements are to run 8.5's versus the 10.50 classes and what roll cage is required to run it does it take a 10 point cage??? we have an 8 point now, does it require an after market seat to run??? or can i use the stock bucket seat???

thanks
Snake eater

[Awesome Bill]

The problems do not require much thought @ all nor does it require lengthy phone calls. It is good to get to know people and that alone usually only lets you make a choice. Good Pontiac Engine builders are far and few in between.

Most of the time when an engine breaks a crank, spin rod bearings, drops a valve etc etc, it was not assembled with nor machined correctly with the parts and service it should of had for the power and rpm needed.

With today's after market Pontiac Steel or Aluminum blocks, there is no excuse for things to break. Crower or Moldex makes the Billet cranks. The Eagle Chinese stuff is JUNK when it comes to Pontiac and serious hp and rpm. I only rate their cranks @ 700 hp max. If you don't know the dimensions of a Pontiac Block, go ahead and put an inferior crank in and put $2000 rods it in, it will come apart quickly.

I know everyone will say this or that, but then take the engine off the dyno that needs an adjustment and put it in a real car and then you see why the HP #'s do not even come close to the most important ET#'s. Your dads car @ best made only 600 hp and that is a gift.

My very first car was a 1965 GTO 4 speed with a 67 428, that was the 1st and last Pontiac engine I blew up. I was 15 when I got it and still have it today with a totally updated 7.50 Certified ARC Race Cars upgrade. You will need a ton of stuff, firs suits, tranny, diaper, 9 second NHRA license and more.

Pontiacs that are put together with stock or inferior parts are only a grenade with the pin pulled. It is not if they are going to blow up, its only WHEN!

If you took the amount of monies less the first 2 engines to a real engine builder that knows Pontiacs, you would still be running and having a ball. Not everyone knows how to build a Pontiac and I have only known a few who do it right for the package required.

A sheet metal intake will not work with your combination because you said you needed to run the stock or a 4" cowl hood at best, so if your not going to run the that hood, you can use the sheet metal. Get ready to spend $25,000.00 +- for any engine that will make over a 1000 hp TRACK proven hp with the parts you need to do it.

If dad is set on ALL POWER, and I agree with him in this case, ( and that is not cheating or not knowing what your doing to make power ), then it has to be top of the line stuff to make that power from what is available. Power is power no matter what form it comes in. When your only talking about 400cfm +-10, 1000 hp is all you get. If someone says they are making more with less, it is usually not true.

But if all motor is what you want, then with the cfm that is available with as cast heads, then your going to have to spin the little girl a lot harder to move air to make the 1000hp + you need. If your going to spin the Pontiac around 8000 rpm, your going to need some KILLER $$$$ parts to keep it alive and make at least 1 season and do some track maintenence. Your completed package in the car is more important than the engine believe it or not.

Just because you finally get 1000+- hp, does not mean it will even come close in the car. I make 1050 with my DART 355 Headed BBC 540 to run 8.49 @ 164mph @ 3300 lbs. The engine on the dyno with a 350 shot gave me 1200+. How come its not @ the rear wheels?

But, when I apply the second stage of NOS, which I originally built the car for and run 7.86 @ 3350lbs, all my power comes right home. Take a look @ the Video my son has of the Shake down @ Etown. That 540 is 4 years old and I have only taken it out of the car once because of a little to much NOS and not enough gas that lifted a coulple ring lands.

Like I said, this is a 540, it does not know its a Chev let alone a Rambler. It just know air and fuel make power. When an engine can tell what make it is and decide to blow up because of that, that is the day I quit. So good luck, with what ever you do. One more thing, luck has nothing to do with it anything @ all when it comes to engine building, that comes on RACE DAY if? you can make 6 or more rounds without having the engine pop.

[want-a-be]

Bill is right on the mark about all this. Once you get an engine, you're going to have to get the power to the ground. Updateing the chassis to handle the new found power will be a must. Not only cause of the power you're wanting to make....but because the rules will mandate it. If the ole' Firebird went out there today, like it is, and ran an 8.49 he would be invited to leave and come back when he updates his car, and gets licensed to be able to run that fast. The rules can be a pain sometimes. But they are in place to make things safe.

Don

[snakeeater1968]

Bill is right on the mark about all this. Once you get an engine, you're going to have to get the power to the ground. Updateing the chassis to handle the new found power will be a must. Not only cause of the power you're wanting to make....but because the rules will mandate it. If the ole' Firebird went out there today, like it is, and ran an 8.49 he would be invited to leave and come back when he updates his car, and gets licensed to be able to run that fast. The rules can be a pain sometimes. But they are in place to make things safe.

Don

first of all it's good to see you two are getting along so well again....secondly i must not have been very clear.....unclear enuff that you both continue to think that all we want is a 1,000+ hp motor...not so by a long shot...to set the record straight... yes..we want someone to build us a motor that has the potential to run 8.50 - 9.0's that part is correct but...that we have any intentions of trying to make an unsafe car go down the track couldn't be father from the truth... i've been asking and asking...what are the things we need to do to transform a car that ran 10.50's and met and excieded all the safty requirements, safe to run and still APEAR to be as stock as possible and yet still meet or exceed all the safty rules and more....i feel that it is still possible to meet the goals we have and still be safe, after making upgrades to verious parts of the car mainly the chasey of course... i don't feel that i have implied and at no time have i intetionaly tried to imply that we would be that reckless and take a car down the track that wasn't safe...to run the speeds it would be capable of running...the car will have a chasey certification and we will get our licence befor we ever take it down the track...racing is fun but not worth loosing your life especialy if you can do something to prevent it....and you know this don because we talked to you about what we needed to do to make the car SAFE to run at those speeds and times AND STILL be as stock APEARING as possible...and i also talked to you bill when i called and asked about the motor and talked about what set up you run and then what we needed to do to handle the 1,000 hp and you told us that your camero doesn't run a four link but slide a link bars and so this is strainge to me that you guys think that safty isn't our first priority....i felt that we were clear befor in our goals to be stock appearing but still be as safe as possible i think this time i have been more direct in what we want and are looking for...

thanks

jeff

[Awesome Bill]

I run a stock 1968 Camaro with a back halfed ladder bar suspension and that is it. No anti roll bars, no slidder nothing. Watch my video of my car and see how my car reacts to 275+ shot of nitrous right off the line every time. I have it down to a science with the old girl.

Before you can even think of running 8.50's, It would be cheaper to put a Pontiac front end on my Camaro and go racing for $37,500.00. It is all there and ready to race. Just pop your front end on her and go. But, I know that sounds like a lot but you will have that and more in a finished car to run 8.50's before your done with a car like mine. +, 1000 hp will not put you into the 8.50's with anything over 3000 lbs you have to run with a big block. Nitrous is used in this class to maintain 8.50's even when the weather gets bad. You can do it on motor but it will need to be well over 1100hp+. So if your really interested, let me know.

You can not build anything that will last over 580CI with pure Pontiac stuff. Also, it will not make 1000+hp so your going to be short for running 8.50. I know everyone says they can get way more than 1000hp from a Pontiac with Pontiac heads, but tell them to prove it @ the track with a 3000lb car. E.T. just confirms the dyno!

If you spray the 577 Pontiac, it might break if you do. So it would be wise to build a 500CI Real Pontiac, then run NOS and you have a chance @ doing something once for a first time and have fun all year long! If you try, you will see what I am saying is true. By the way, 4.600 bore stuff will not even be an option for a real Pontiac, won't fit!

[snakeeater1968]

does anyone know where to find a cowl indution hood for a 1969 fire bird at least 6 inches i've tried all the usual places like jeggs summit harwood....

any help would be great

jeff

[lun40119]

I didn't look, but did you check out year one and OPG. I have a goodmark on mine, I can't remember where I bought it though.

[want-a-be]

VFN might have something

Don

[snakeeater1968]

that site was great!! have you had a chance to look @ dads motor yet? he said something about getting my car this weekend and taking it to you....;et me know how it's going...


thanks jeff

[want-a-be]

Getting it here tomarrow. Going to start pulling the engine then. Didn't know I was going to be pulling it though,...but it's ok. Been calling around to Butler and Kauffman the last 2 days. Getting some numbers together. Did some calling around for Chris' build also. Is Chris going to be with your Dad when he brings your car?

Don

[snakeeater1968]

Getting it here tomarrow. Going to start pulling the engine then. Didn't know I was going to be pulling it though,...but it's ok. Been calling around to Butler and Kauffman the last 2 days. Getting some numbers together. Did some calling around for Chris' build also. Is Chris going to be with your Dad when he brings your car?

Don

talked to the dad today, said you were going to shoot a price on a whole new motor and see what happend to this one....what went wrong... said he would bring hood when he dropps off my car and chris would be thier to see my car get droped off... he wants to see, the befor and after and take some pictures and video... i know we all want to know what happend to the motor in the poncho....and how bad it is... getting excited to see how it all turns out... i know dad and chris wants to presurve thier car as original as possible.dads being an original big block car and in great shape and with chris and his ss camero with what may be the original SBC motor ....i am more flexible when it comes to mod's...my body is straight as an arrow and the car is in good shape but i like the pro street look and as for the paint am leaning towards all black with either white or gray yenko badging or a dark blue almost black with ghost flames...dad may want the same paint he likes the ghost flame idea for father and son in the dark blue almost black..it would be cool to have matching paint...i know it sounds corny but i don't care.....said your going to work on all 3 cars at the same time...thats kick a$$... i bet they pop in from time to time to see the progres and take some pics... he said you are posting the pics on a web site...can you give me the address to see the progress...

thanks for working on our cars...i know they will run as good as they look when your done...and last another 40 yrs... we all plan on taking them to as may shows as possible.... funny thing happend at work today... some one came looking for me and no one knew me by name just that i was the guy that drives the nova to work every day....LOL

take it easy don't work to hard

jeff

[snakeeater1968]

hey don,

you pulled the poncho motor yesterday, have you had a chance to drain the block and pull the pan and see the carnage yet??? you said that the crank is most likely broken in two.....:confused::confused::confused: man not again.... but won't know for sure till it comes apart... bummer...that was a 3800 dollar crank....

thanks don

jeff

[Awesome Bill]

Harwood is the only one to get.

[snakeeater1968]

I run a stock 1968 Camaro with a back halfed ladder bar suspension and that is it. No anti roll bars, no slidder nothing. Watch my video of my car and see how my car reacts to 275+ shot of nitrous right off the line every time. I have it down to a science with the old girl.

Before you can even think of running 8.50's, It would be cheaper to put a Pontiac front end on my Camaro and go racing for $37,500.00. It is all there and ready to race. Just pop your front end on her and go. But, I know that sounds like a lot but you will have that and more in a finished car to run 8.50's before your done with a car like mine. +, 1000 hp will not put you into the 8.50's with anything over 3000 lbs you have to run with a big block. Nitrous is used in this class to maintain 8.50's even when the weather gets bad. You can do it on motor but it will need to be well over 1100hp+. So if your really interested, let me know.

You can not build anything that will last over 580CI with pure Pontiac stuff. Also, it will not make 1000+hp so your going to be short for running 8.50. I know everyone says they can get way more than 1000hp from a Pontiac with Pontiac heads, but tell them to prove it @ the track with a 3000lb car. E.T. just confirms the dyno!

If you spray the 577 Pontiac, it might break if you do. So it would be wise to build a 500CI Real Pontiac, then run NOS and you have a chance @ doing something once for a first time and have fun all year long! If you try, you will see what I am saying is true. By the way, 4.600 bore stuff will not even be an option for a real Pontiac, won't fit!

hey bill wandering if you still have any big cubic inch ponchoes laying around and what the numbers are for those both price and spec wise...

thanks

jeff

[Awesome Bill]

Not interested, we are super busy now. Pontiacs are a specialty, I have and build all the large ones. If you want one that runs and don't break, call me, if not, keep asking questions, maybe you will find out how to keep one together. Or, you could just submit to convert over to Chevy and make the swap. Either way, its not cheap especially when you do it 3-4 times. Call me if you are serious, my number has always been available.

[want-a-be]

Thought you was going to run dat Schmidt engine that your Dad bought in dat poncho???

Don

[snakeeater1968]

Thought you was going to run dat Schmidt engine that your Dad bought in dat poncho???

Don

we just got our nhra dues all paid up for two years and got the rule book and reading the rules for each class and what kind of motor can be ran in each class and was interested in finding out about some poncho motors to run in it for the different races....and the pontiac nationals

jeff

[Awesome Bill]

If your real Pontiac you will not butcher the car and put a Chevy in it. All the Pontiac guys will shun you for sure. Just pull the trigger and get a Good Pontiac built and quit second guessing. The more you talk the more you will become confused. Your whole combination is now set up and the only problem your having is keeping them together. A PONTIAC ENGINE DOES NOT KNOW ITS A PONTIAC, IT IS STEEL THAT CAN NOT TALK, THINK, MAKE DECISONS OTHER THAN POWER! Your engine failures are the lack of good machine work and proper assembly packaged well~!

[want-a-be]

Their last engine came apart because they had ultra light, " thin " wrist pins. I took the thing apart. One of the pins was in the bottom of the pan in pieces. Biggest piece I found was about 3/8" x 1" or so. Looks like it shattered like glass and took that crank pin out. Literally,... crank was in 3 pieces. Both rods were still intact. I could pin hone the small end of the rod and still put a pin in it.

I agree with Bill about why your failures are happening. Sounds like tolerances and proper parts selection have plagued you guys the whole time.

Don

[Awesome Bill]

This is a Pontiac your talking about, the wrist pin was most likely not the culprit. Look At It Again. I have run .100 wall very light stuff with these and never broke a pin even with NOS. Could of possibly (which anything is possible) been a defect but not probable. I can tell most people don't even think why Pontiacs are a little fussy. I think I will just start specializing in them. Very few live and hardly any make killer power like they are able too. LOOK AGAIN

[want-a-be]

I haven't taken the short block apart. For me there really isn't any reason to go any farther. The Pin is in the bottom of the pan shattered like glass. I didn't measure the pin,...but it is around .090"-.100" thick. Rod isn't bent.

ahh,...it doesn't really matter. If I go any farther with it I'll look into it more.

Don

[snakeeater1968]

just got the new poncho motor done and back from the dyno, had a lot of help from joe kauffman and dave hilbert in Ohio put it together...ended up with dual 1050's on top 541 cubes, dyno marked the motor at 800+hp and 700+TQ getting geared up to run at pinks all out should be fun... motor sounds bad a$$...we'll see trying for high 9's low tens...only time will tell

Snake eater

[Awesome Bill]

A pontiac with more hp than torque with pontiac heads? Where was peak torque and HP? Did you run a roller?

[snakeeater1968]

not to bad of numbers it has a realy flat power curve and makes all of that power before 6600 rpms ran it on the dyno with out the vac pump...we are looking for a 4 vaine now for it...we tried to get away without it but looks like it will need it after all...what do you think bill...it has 13.1 compression does it have to have a 4 vain pump or a three vain pumpp to run well?? yes it has a solid roller custom grind cam....

jeff

[Awesome Bill]

It does not need a vacuum pump @ all. That is an option. If you have blow by, that is the ring seal not worth a crap. Engines properely honed do no have any blow by! We don't even run a vacuum pump until the last dyno pulls just to pick the peak Hp up to Max for paper only. More people are using these for blow by control. That should be the new name for them when ring seal sucks?