DART IRON EAGLE 180/49cc

[rbrduck71]

bought heads two yrs. ago, put them to use this year, 15-20 hours on heads/engine, 11.6 to 1 comp. 7000 rpm camshaft, motor never been over 210 degrees, car weighs 1500lbs, 4.88s 31in tires.
replaced guide seals cuz they were leaking i thought, called dart and said send me your favorite seals, installed them, raced one weekend, 8 passes 3ooft a pass, plugs still wet with oil, parked pulled motor apart three days later set heads on bench two hours later looked into intake runner, all 8 intake valves had oil on top of them, not on combustion side, intake manifold side! while sitting on bench all valves shut and oil puddled, dart tech said rocker studs penetrate intake runner could not see that, vaccum tested stud hole none leaked, intake gasket not leaking, intake runner not wet, HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! owned heads too long to return, cant make a good pass if plugs are fouled, to see oil haze when i leave go to website avenalsanddrags .com go to photos then NOV2008 look for car #6302
HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!
RUBBERDUCK

[want-a-be]

Are you sure your intake gasket has a good seal? What kind of vacuum does this engine draw? Cam specs? Intake that you're running? Intake gasket size? How do the valve guides look? Are they loose?

Don

[Awesome Bill]

Rubber Duck, you could leave all 16 valve guide seals off and never see but maybe a puff of smoke when starting. Sometimes with triple springs on our engines, we don't even use them. My best guess is you have to have oil being introduced threw a pcv system, modulator from transmission is leaking, intake gaskets etc. Does the engine have any blow by? If a valve guide was the problem, it most likely is being pushed and pulled from improper geometry and that will take guides out in the matter of hours. Re-check the basics.

[rbrduck71]

COMP CAMS 12-243-3, NOT AN AGGRESSIVE CAM, LOOK IN JEGS CATALOG PG.47-X, NO OIL RESIDUE ON INTAKE RUNNER, GASKET SHOWED NO VISIBLE OIL TRAIL, EDLEBROCK PERFORMER RPM AIR-GAP, FELPRO BLUE INTAKE GASKET, THIS IS NOT AN EXOTIC HIGH MAINTENANCE MOTOR, REMEMBER MOTOR SAT FOR A FEW DAYS ASSEMBELED, SOME IN. VALVES OPEN, SOME CLOSED, TOOK THE MOTOR APART NOW ALL VALVES ARE CLOSED, FEW HRS. LATER LOOK IN RUNNERS AL INTAKES HAVE OIL ON TOP OF VALVES, COMPCAM PRO MAGNUM 1.52, HAVE NOT TAKEN HEADS APART SINCE PULLING MOTOR, I WILL NEXT WEEK AND THEN LET YOU KNOW WHAT I FIND, 12-14in OF VACCUM, HAS A BRAND NEW PCV CUZ I WASNT SURE WHEN I REPLACED GUIDE SEALS WITH DARTS FLAVOR AND REPLACED IT ANYWAY, BLOW BY, WHEN THE MOTOR IS NOT REVVED UP AND WARM YOULL SEE A LITTLE BIT FROM VALVE COVER BREATHER, BUT HEADS ON BENCH WITH OIL PUDDLE DONT MAKE SENSE, TRANS MODULATOR WILL BE CHECKED BUT I WOULD THINK THAT OIL IS LIGHT ENOUGH THAT I WOULD BARELY NOTICE IT, I DONT KNOW IF THIS MAKES A DIFFERENCE BUT I USED A HIGH VOLUMNE OIL PUMP ON STOCK BLOCK, I KNOW THAT WAS A WASTE, WITH NO WAY TO RETURN OIL FAST ENOUGH, BUT ON NEW HEADS THIS SHOULDNT BE MY PROBLEM, RIGHT? THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. YOU GUYS ARE THE FIRST TO ACTUALLY TRY TO HELP, THANK YOU!

[rbrduck71]

What Do You Know? I Made It To The Racers Gallery, Not The Prettiest, But I Have A Goooder Time In It!
Rubberduck

[rbrduck71]

Gotta Tell You Guys A Great Story, A Buddy Of Mines Kid Just Finished Up Schooling At A Wyotech Or Something, They Taught Him All About Ls Motors, Electric Diesel Pickups, And Imports, Thats A Lot Of Performance Schoolin. So He Comes Over Last Summer To See How My 1st Generation Sbc With Cast Aluminum Dart Valve Covers On My Dart Heads Looks In My Car, Love The Machined Logo On My Valve Covers, And He Asks Me This!!!!!!!! Why Are You Running A Dodge Motor?
Oh My God!!!!!!!!! I Says
You Guys Have A Good Day, Thanks Again For The Help

[want-a-be]

If I'm reading what you're saying right. You took the heads off the engine, and while they are on the bench they get some oil puddling on top of the valves. Are you seeing any oil tracks comming down the guides onto the stems of the valves?

So the intake runners are bone dry? No oil at all in them? Sounds to me like you might have a very slight coating of oil in the runners that must be collecting over time to form the puddles.

I'd check the guides also. Sounds like the rocker geometry might be a bit off and could have taken out the guides as Bill has already said. Need to take em apart and have them checked. If they do need replacing it isn't any big deal. But,... if they are worn...you'll need to take some time and make sure your push rod length is correct. If you need any help I'd be more then happy to talk you through it.

Don

[rbrduck71]

Hey Guys Thanks For Reading Again! Don I Change Oil After Every Weekend So Oil Is Very Clean, Heads Are Very Clean So No Carbon Or Whatnot Just Bare Iron, I Can Rub My Finger In Runners And Find No Oil Residue Cant Get Fingers To The Guides, And Yes Set Heads On Bench, Found Oil All Eight In. Dont Get It Cuz Motor Sat Assembled With Some Valves Open Before I Took It Apart. I Will Take Heads Apart After Christmas Week And Tell You What I Find.
What Lead To This Oil Discovery Was From The Begining, After First Fire Up I Thought I Had Too Much Carbueration, Was Fooling Around With Carb As I Leaned It Out Plugs Were Getting Oilier, (was Really Fat) So All This Oil Problem Has Been From The Beginning Right Out Of Dart Box, I Didnt Think Hard Or Soon Enough About Heads, Cuz They Were Brand New.
Valvetrain, I Gave Compcams My Specs, With The Lift Less Than .500 They Said I Would Be Safe, They Sent Me Cam, Lifters, Pushrods, Rockers, Springs, Retainers, And Locks, I Figured Beter Off All One Brand.... I Know, I Shoulda Done My Math, But I Didnt, Got Lazy Cuz Motor Was Kinda Docile.
Don, Later On I Would Like To Swap Numbers And Get Your Set Up Instructions For Valvetrain Setup, Guys Thanks Again For The Help
Buck
Ps Was The High Volumne Pump Part Of My Problem?

[lun40119]

I don't think that the HV pump was the problem. I think the fact that you had pushrods sent to you without measuring first was the problem. I have alot different setup but I ended up with 8.100 pushrods in mine. Now that I am switching to a mech roller, and a set of Shaft mounts I am sure that I will have to get another set. I have enough pushrods laying around to build a stick house. :D

[want-a-be]

I don't think that the HV pump was the problem. I think the fact that you had pushrods sent to you without measuring first was the problem. I have alot different setup but I ended up with 8.100 pushrods in mine. Now that I am switching to a mech roller, and a set of Shaft mounts I am sure that I will have to get another set. I have enough pushrods laying around to build a stick house. :D

Jake is correct here.

One thing that just occured to me. You said that this problem seemed to be there from the very first time you fired the engine. I'm wondering if you installed the rings correctly. When you take the pistons out look at every ring to make sure they are installed with the correct side up. I have seen rings marked wrong from the manufacturer.

The top ring should have a bevel cut into the inside of the ring. This bevel should go to the top.

The Secong ring should also have a bevel cut into the inside of the ring. The second rings bevel should be installed down. No matter how the rings are marked.

Installing the rings upside down could cause oil being on top of the valves. Depending on how bad reversion is will depend on the oil getting back into the runners.

What kind of rings did you use?

Was this block torque plate honed? Could also be part of the problem if it has not.

What kind of rings did you use?

Don

[want-a-be]

Don't give the pump a second thought. If the oil pan wasn't running out of oil then it wasn't being a problem.

Don

[rbrduck71]

Sorry Guys Im Going Too Fast, (keyboard Not Track) When I Say Since The Beginning Im Talking About Installation Of Heads, The Motor, Shortblock Was Put Together 9 Mos. Previous, Was Broke In With Fuelie Heads, No Problems There
Everything I Have Wrote Was Referring To Installation Of Heads And After, Sorry For The Con Fusion

[rbrduck71]

TODAY IS FRIDAY FEB. 12 2009

this is an update


heads are in the shop hope to tell you what i found shortly, would like to get your opinion on proper head setup, pushrod length, etc. im using comp cams guide plates, cant get both rockers perfectly centered on stems, thought this was acceptable, is there an adjustable guide plate? do you cut and weld them to be centered, how do you weld them up? heads assembled? thanks for the help and patience

rubberduck

[underdog]

Isky makes a two piece guide plate that are pretty nice. I think they are about $30

[rbrduck71]

thanks underdog i thought i only seen the two piece for BBC still need to know how to go about setting them up

THANKS

rubberduck

[underdog]

I got mine from a local speed shop. The part number for a 3/8 push rod is 300-AGP. They go under the rocker stud and I just moved them untill the push rod was centered with the rocker bolt, then checked my pattern by marking the valve tip with a sharpie pen and run it through a couple of times.

I was told you can weld them but mine do fine like they are. I did have to grind on them some to get them where I wanted them and just torqued them down with some locktite.

I think Summit sells them too.

You guys can correct me but I think the ones Dart has are for big blocks.

[rbrduck71]

thank you underdog, my motor wont see 7000 rpm for more than a second or two while racing, more of a torque motor than rpm/hp motor meaning loctited guides will most likely be fine

THANKS

rubberduck

[rbrduck71]

UPDATE:

got the heads apart, using a magnetic base dial indacator, opening valves to maximum opening/lift, doing this by looking at marks on stem, heres what i found

E-.005 I-.004 I-.007 E-.004 E-.012 I-.003 I-.003 E-.004

measurements where taken valves open, and on the outside of valve seat, widest, flat part of valve, then wiggling valve side to side.

when a manufacture suggest specific parts/gaskets should be used with their products i suggest you/ME listen,
called edelbrock to ask if they were trying to sell more of their brand name products/gaskets when making this suggestion they said:

they want theirs or chevy made intake gaskets used on their rpm air-gap manifold,

go figure!

please let me know if guides are ok or not, will measure other head and post

THANK YOU FOR THE HELP!!!

rubberduck

[rbrduck71]

HEAD # 1&2


#1 E-.005 I-.004 I-.007 E-.004 E-.012 I-.003 I-.003 E-.004

#2 E-.005 I-.006 I-.005 E-.018 E-.006 I-.006 I-.008 E-.009

im not a rocket scientist but it sounds like i ruined my guides, paperwork for my heads said:

49cc IRON EAGLE CYLINDER HEADS
the shallower depth of the combustion chamber on these heads necessitates the valve job to be an average of .100" closer to the deck than our 64cc heads.

YOU MUST ALWAYS CHECK PISTON TO VALVE CLEARANCE

so does that mean i shoulda had pushrods .100" shorter?

its sad when you ruin new parts with ignorance

THANKS FOR THE HELP

rubberduck

[Awesome Bill]

hit that one on the head, you need longer push rods!

[rbrduck71]

guides are toast and i need longer pushrods, great, do you have a preferred

method determining the required length/geometry?

so .100" lower, that means rockers are at the same height, but the valve is

lower/closer to block deck? having said that, wouldnt it been easier to sell heads

with longer stemmed valves, so its more of a bolt in product, or is pushrod length

gonna change anyway depending cam selection? so why make special valves?

one of your engine shops need to close its doors and move out here, cuz by the

time i get enough engine building common sense im not gonna have any index

fingers left.

THANKS FOR YOUR HELP!!!

rubberduck

[rbrduck71]

almost forgot, whats the guides acceptable tolerance, or should i replace them all?

ex. guides are a slightly different color than the in. guides, how do ask for the right

guides?

are there any other questions i should ask the machine shop before letting them

work on my heads?

should i buy my guides from dart?

you guys have been a great help thanks again! hopefully my next engine crisis will

be real one not self induced

rubberduck

[rbrduck71]

why does the time say 4:11pm when its 9:11am here?

[rbrduck71]

can i assume that any machine shop can do this work? if not how do i determine who

is capable of this work?