Iron Eagle worn out guides

[sven's angry]

What's up with these heads, I purchased a pair of assembled units part no. 10311112 back in august 2006, put them on a 69 camaro with a new 650 holley on an rpm airgap manifold, drove the car for about 1000 km over a period of 14months and decided to put it on a wheel dyno, all went well untill they managed to drop the washer from the air intake into the engine and then fired up again.
I stripped the engine and as a precaution I sent the heads to the head shop where they discovered all 16 valve guides were totally worn out.
Cost me over $750 to have them replaced. The owner of the head shop contacted the Australian agent for dart , "Precision International" who basically said, "its not our fault you'r an idiot". What kind of service is that, you spend your hard earned cash on what you think is a quality product and you end up with a bad taste in your mouth.
How many other heads out there are running around with flogged out guides, I only discoverd these by accident.

[BIG CHIEF]

Hello Sven,

I’m sorry to hear that you have had some troubles with your build up, and I want to try and help you out as much as I can. Dart as a manufacture stands behind its products 100% in the event of a manufacture defect that might occur.
Precision international is one of our biggest distributors in Australia, and have always represented us in the upward most respect. To be honest without customers like yourself Precisions business would not exist nor would Dart Machinery. I have a few questions for you and then we can proceed to try and get this issue resolved. Shoot me your phone number and I will call you on our dime later this afternoon or Monday and we can go over what exactly happened.

Thanks,

Mike

[sven's angry]

Thanks Mike,
My phone number here is +61 7 3814 4078
Sven

[BIG CHIEF]

No problem,

I will call you around 5:30 our time, so we can go over the details of your inquiry.

Regards,

Mike

[sven's angry]

Thanks for ringing last week Mike, did you find anything out about the date of manufacture?,
waiting for your call.
Sven

[Awesome Bill]

most time with all the guides worn out, this means geometry was way off. when the rocker binds and rolls a long distance on the valve tip, this pushes and pulls the valve into the guide. Wearing it out very quickly. As far as $750.00, thats steep, we replace all the guides, comp valve job, set springs up and resurface for $500
There is most likely no way all the guides were worn. this had to be driver error or lack of lubrication on start up at the least but most of the time there, it will hang a valve, proving geometry as th culprit. Look at the top of the valve for he wear pattern. it will be wide.

[sven's angry]

$750 is not expensive here in Australia. Geometry was perfect, a nice narrow wear pattern in centre of all valve stems, how can it be driver error or lack of lubricant when the heads were purchased as new fully assembled units.I think its more likely they had been sitting on the wharehouse shelf for a long time before I got them and the lubricant used when assembled by dart had simply drained out. The type of seal used would not allow any engine oil to replace the lost lubricant. When you buy fully assembled heads you dont pull them down to relube the valves, if that was the case there should be a warning on the box at least.
All care was taken on initial startup of this engine, engine rpm maintained as per cam manufacturers guide for the first half hour. Perhaps there is a lesson here when buying fully assembled heads even when they come from the best.
I was hoping to hear from Mike again on this issue, he did say he was going to call me back.
Sven.

[Awesome Bill]

I have never seen any lube drain out. The seal will keep all fluid suspended because of vacuum. The fluid can not seep out. Maybe a tiny bit. I would say if you had the engine on the dyno with 8 egts, you would see temps over 1800 degrees because of a lean part throttle condition. I have done those break in periods and watched that part throttle egt temp go off the chart. If you don't think so, ask any good engine builder. The break in period should have a rolled throttle between 1000 and 2000 if you can't monitor exhasut temps. As far as any high pressure lubricate, it attaches itself to the metals to create a bond. Now if the lube any one was using was not quality lube, one that has a ton of zinc and sulfur along with other stuff, than maybe that could assist in killing the guides. I don't think so. Even the worst low end oil has enough lubricant, heavy metals in the oil, not oil, to keep the guides from grinding together. Still a little suspect on the whole wear it out deal. Any metal that comes in contact with metal will stick a valve quickly, not grind off the metal to make all the guides seem worn out. We have stuck exhaust valves on start up and never hurt the guide because of temps we were not aware of before we learned these issues with part throttle bull____. If there was no lube at all, you would of seen scoring and stuck vavles along with a ton of other problems. I don't think any metal touching metal would not leave some metal trace due to scuffing the 2 metals as you have stated would happen. We have seen your condition from novius guys that did not use the proper pushrods and create a lot of pushing and pulling with the rockers and the valve tip. I don't know any thing else that does that condtion other than improper geometry.

[sven's angry]

First of all I'm not a novice, the car was driven for over 1000 miles before it went on the dyno, the valve geometry was perfect, there were sigs of pickup on the stems, lets not forget these heads were assembled by Dart, I simply bolted them on.
Does Dart pay for your services here?, fact remains the guides were all knackered and that smells fishy to me, we are not doing rocket science here for petes sake.

[lun40119]

Wow, for what you paid for those guides, we can get a whole new bare set here in the states. OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!! Im sorry about your heads, but sometimes things happen. If I didn't want to worry about it, I would have Bill just build me a bullet proof dyno mule, go fast and never worry about it, but I like to fool around and try to do it myself too. So I do realize that things are going to go wrong. I am sure that sooner or later I am going to give in and get that Pro Bracket 434(with the Dart CNC upgrade). Just have to talk the wifey into it. :) Until then IT happens.

[Dart Vader]

Sven, I think that the best way to help you out with this situtation is for you to speak directly to our sales manager here.
Please give him a call or e-mail him and he will help you to resolve this issue.

His name is Steve Arent
248-362-1188 Ext. 109
sarent@dartheads.com

- It should be noted that paid Dart employees are identified in that capacity and carry a moderator or administrator title here on the boards. Please keep board discussions civil.

[want-a-be]

You bolted these heads on right out of the box? Thats usually a no-no. Or...were they washed in a solvent tank without disassembling them? Usually a lot of foreign material in those heads once recieved. Might be a possibility. How much guide to valve clearence did they have after they were worn out? Did you do the measuring? What with, and how where the guides measured? When you checked the geometry. Did you use checker springs or the valve springs you used? Roller tip rocker or not? Solid or hydrolic lifters?

Would like to be able help you troubleshoot your problem. But on a little more civil tone please. Trust me I understand your frustration with this.

Right or wrong,...I like to use a combination of a molybdenum based lube and oil on the valves and a lil oil in the guide when assembling. Go light on the moly lube. As a little goes a long way.

Before you ask me...no, I'm not paid for my services here. In fact they may, or may not...lol, be wondering who the heck I am. I am just a want-a-be engine builder who was fortunate enough to grow up with the son of a very well know Pro Stock team. No...they are no longer racing.

Thanks, Don

[Awesome Bill]

tell her to call me! I'll help

[SUX 2BU]

I too have bought assembled Dart Iron Eagle heads (S/S series) from Aerohead Racing. I received them just before Christmas and they will probably sit in the box until I can afford to put them on sometime in the late summer or fall. I planned on just bolting them on out of the box too. What other prep needs to be done? I obviously do not want to take them apart just to clean them. I also want to paint them. Sven, I don't mean to hijack your thread but since you have similar heads and had a premature wear problem, I don't want that to happen to me too. Funds are very very limited for me to do any kind of motor work. And $750 is around what local shops are charging just to refresh stock heads. That's what I paid including shipping for the new Darts!

[want-a-be]

Take your finger and run it into all the runners. Any machining grit, or dirt in the heads warrent your taking them apart for a very good cleaning. Cleaning your assembly before assembly is a must!!! I clean everything before it goes together. Then use the proper lube.

Later, Don :cool:

[Awesome Bill]

Its always the one son who is marching out of step from the whole armys mom saying, "Oh look my son is the only one marching correctly". Yeah its a bite when something happens, no argument there, but we have never seen guide wear @ all with anyones heads. It is possible the DARTS boyz putting the heads together that day had a brain fart, we will concede to that. But, we, us @ Awesome Engines always make sure they did their job. We have found very little wrong with assembled heads. So being it was possible, its not probable. Its like GM not putting oil in 1 engine coming off the assembly line. Could happen? There is really no way for DART to check the heads other than sending them back. So if you don't do that, they can not help at all just taking your word. Like I said before, the only time we see guide issues is when the valve tip is being push and pulled back and fourth from improper Geometry. That is it.