Water holes in Deck

[gremmen]

Saw someone mention this on another site. thought I'd better check into it.

Where are all the Water holes in the deck of a Little M block, and do I port match the head gasket for them or just use the small holes in the gasket. Will be using Pro 1 Aluminum heads.

Thanks

[CNC BLOCKS]

On the Little-M blocks we feel that the holes should be matched to the gasket and this should not be over looked.

Here is a pic of a block where we opened up 7 areas on each deck
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/CNCBLOCKS/DARTBLOCK002.jpg

[Awesome Bill]

The small holes in the gaskets are all you need. Opening up the holes in the deck just do nothing. If the hole in the head gasket is blocked, I would check the gasket for being a mistake. If both head gaksets do the same thing on both sides, then I would then and only then open the hole up. If the hole is open, your fine.

If you do have to drill a small opening for some reason no one would know, be sure to relieve the top of the block with a chamfer tool. Leaving just a plain small or large hole around the cylinder will cause a crack. Always chamfer.

[CNC BLOCKS]

The small holes in the gaskets are all you need. Opening up the holes in the deck just do nothing. If the hole in the head gasket is blocked, I would check the gasket for being a mistake. If both head gaksets do the same thing on both sides, then I would then and only then open the hole up. If the hole is open, your fine.

If you do have to drill a small opening for some reason no one would know, be sure to relieve the top of the block with a chamfer tool. Leaving just a plain small or large hole around the cylinder will cause a crack. Always chamfer.

Restricting the water because the holes were not opened up is a BIG BIG mistake as we seen a block where the machine shop over look this this proccess and it ended up sticking an intake valve and valve clearance was not an issue, After fixing the water restriction and replacing the bent valve the problem went away.

Bill you must be the only that I know off that is restricting the water to the top end but its a good way to get repeat work thats for sure LOL

The holes are in the right spot ther just not big enough and on the Bowtie blocks they machine some of the water holes so there is no restriction.

Bill do a search on speed talk on this unless they booted you off this site as well!!!

[gremmen]

I'm not close to my block at this time, I'll be home in a week. I would think my block looks the same as the above picture. So the 6 large holes above & below the cylinders, you say to make my gaskets match those holes ? Normal gaskets only have like a 1/4 - 3/8 hole in that area. I ordererd Muliti-layer gaskets to fit my needs for high compression & nos, and I believe they only have small holes in that area. Probably a pain to cut these gaskets bigger, but I will if that's whats needed.

How many water holes are there ? I count 6 large holes and looks like 8 small holes.

I really don't want to ruin my expensive motor with screwing up due to water passage restriction.

[CNC BLOCKS]

I'm not close to my block at this time, I'll be home in a week. I would think my block looks the same as the above picture. So the 6 large holes above & below the cylinders, you say to make my gaskets match those holes ? Normal gaskets only have like a 1/4 - 3/8 hole in that area. I ordererd Muliti-layer gaskets to fit my needs for high compression & nos, and I believe they only have small holes in that area. Probably a pain to cut these gaskets bigger, but I will if that's whats needed.

How many water holes are there ? I count 6 large holes and looks like 8 small holes.

I really don't want to ruin my expensive motor with screwing up due to water passage restriction.

The center hole in the top of the deck there are 2 places that are opened up, the 2 small holes on the rear of the decks, and the 3 lower holes are opened up.

I'm with you why would you want to restrict the water and it only takes maybe 15 minutes to lay them out and grind them to match.

All the engine builders I know also open the water holes up to the head gaskets and there not having any issues.

When you get a gasket on there you will see what I am talking about.

PS maybe Bill has never machined a Dart Little-M block LOL :D:D

[Awesome Bill]

If any intake valve ever stuck, I would check the intake valve clearance fist than fuel mixture maybe. The head actually grows in size with the heat of the engine and the intake valve gets a bath in nice cool fuel to keep it pretty much stable. So other than that, an exhaust valve would of been the culprit. But either way I would of guessed and exhaust valve would go if it was running hot from what you blaming a DART RACE BLOCK for not being manufactured correctly. What type of Bull____ is that. I have never ground on a Dart Little or Big M block to correct a problem that does not exist. The head gasket has the proper holes for proper cooling already. If you want to try to cut a MLS gasket to do something that does not need doing with any race block that I know of, you will have problems for sure. I have only seen 2-3 defective head gaskets in my life and they were just batch running problems that should of never been shipped.

I run a lot of blower engines threw our shop that don't even get water and I have never stuck any valve even after 50 passes under real conditions. So without water if the fuel mixture and valve clearances are correct, this proves you must of missed another issue with another engine again and try to lay blame on a manufacture?

It seems our CNC guest gets these 1 off engines that loose oil pressure and blame it on 2 bolt or 4 bolt caps being not enough for 450 hp and now we have a DART Little M RACE block, that causes and engine to stick an intake valve. Never heard of such nonsense in my engine building experience. I would be very careful about you blaming DART for a problem on a DART forum that does not exist.

Also, For your information Frank, the lady that started all that crap and posted that junk that was not true, went to jail for bad checks and a number of other charges and has now got nothing for all her troubles for trying to smear peoples names. I wonder what your excuse is.

I have been invited to Speed Talk a few times buy people who have told me personally that you like to keep this type of action up by all these post. Can't help to think why you would want to do that.

[CNC BLOCKS]

If any intake valve ever stuck, I would check the intake valve clearance fist than fuel mixture maybe. The head actually grows in size with the heat of the engine and the intake valve gets a bath in nice cool fuel to keep it pretty much stable. So other than that, an exhaust valve would of been the culprit. But either way I would of guessed and exhaust valve would go if it was running hot from what you blaming a DART RACE BLOCK for not being manufactured correctly. What type of Bull____ is that. I have never ground on a Dart Little or Big M block to correct a problem that does not exist. The head gasket has the proper holes for proper cooling already. If you want to try to cut a MLS gasket to do something that does not need doing with any race block that I know of, you will have problems for sure. I have only seen 2-3 defective head gaskets in my life and they were just batch running problems that should of never been shipped.

I run a lot of blower engines threw our shop that don't even get water and I have never stuck any valve even after 50 passes under real conditions. So without water if the fuel mixture and valve clearances are correct, this proves you must of missed another issue with another engine again and try to lay blame on a manufacture?

It seems our CNC guest gets these 1 off engines that loose oil pressure and blame it on 2 bolt or 4 bolt caps being not enough for 450 hp and now we have a DART Little M RACE block, that causes and engine to stick an intake valve. Never heard of such nonsense in my engine building experience. I would be very careful about you blaming DART for a problem on a DART forum that does not exist.

Also, For your information Frank, the lady that started all that crap and posted that junk that was not true, went to jail for bad checks and a number of other charges and has now got nothing for all her troubles for trying to smear peoples names. I wonder what your excuse is.

I have been invited to Speed Talk a few times buy people who have told me personally that you like to keep this type of action up by all these post. Can't help to think why you would want to do that.

Again who the hell is this Frank guy you keep talking about??

I have never had a customer with oil pressure problems and what is the problem Frank is having.

You may want to check with Cutis Boggs about you being kicked of engine forums and ruining the racing junk forum as I kind of remeber that one on the old site.

We saw guys tring to run the old 461 x heads that don't have the center cooling hole drilled in them like the rest of the camel hump heads and this guy would hang an intale vavle in practice (Circle track) and this happpend 2 week in a row and he was using the 1003 Felpro and we would would install a new valve as one of my shops is near the track put the cheapy 7733 Pt-2 and it would go the rest of the nite no problem and the next week his engine builder went back through the head putting in his valve and the same thing occured the next race and I cought that the center hole in the heads we not drilled but we use the cheap gasket agoain and it ran the whole feature no problem and I called his builder and told him to drill the extra Holes in the heads and it would cure his problem of sticking intake valves.

And the same on the Dart block the only change was water holes in the decks wer opened up and a new valve and that was the only changes made and never had a problem after that.

Fixing the water holes is some thing that should not be over looked!!!! Its funney all the shops I know are doing the same thing except you HMMM interesting. Maybe I am a step or two above you LOL

Go through this link and you we see where Dart fixed this problem on the SHP block and again I will say it should not be over looked
http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12112

[gremmen]

OK, not that I don’t thoroughly enjoy reading or hearing two Professionals going at it, but it’s still not giving me my answer. Here is a picture of what my gasket looks like or at least very close to it. The top center is opened, as well as the bottom center hole is elongated with 2 holes on each side of it. The other 4 holes are ¼” or so. Do I need to open any of the ¼” holes to match the deck holes ½” – ¾” whatever they are.

I kind of feel this is enough the way the gasket looks, as I’d think I’d want good water circulation around the cylinders more then through the aluminum heads.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/gremmen/gasket.jpg

[gremmen]

The above gasket picture is I believe a Fel-Pro MLS gasket. Mine may be a Mr Gasket MLS since it was one of the only one I found in 4.125 bore. I'm trying to have my brother send me a photo of my gaskets.

If mine are not opened as much as the fel-pro, I may buy a set of them. My only concern in doing so is they only come in either 4.100 or 4.165 that would fit my 4.125 bore. So if I go that way, which gasket bore should I buy? And is there any installing prep I need to do to the iron block & aluminum heads.

Hey I really appreciate you guys taking the time to answer. Sorry for all the dumb Q's

Just got the picture of my 4.125" gasket....... Is it the wrong one to use.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/gremmen/HeadGasket-1.jpg

[Awesome Bill]

Your head gasket is fine for what your doing with a Dart Little M block. The 1142 @4.100 bore to the 1144 4.200 bore is what we use mostly. We do use the Cometic also and you can get those in custom bore sizes and thickness. Either is fine. You do not have to modify anything on the deck or the gasket. Just make sure the holes are open. The deck and head holes are way to large and if the head gasket is opened up in areas that people tend to think they need it always decreases flow somewhere else. That is a given. You can order the Cometic anyway, size, head, bore, thickness you like. I can take care of that if you would like and ship them right to you if you prefer. I personally would not use the gasket you have pictured last. There are no preforated areas for increased sealing around the water ports. They would most likely be fine for what your doing so don't get me wrong.

[gremmen]

OK Bill, let me lay out my motor spec's to you, then maybe I can get a better gasket from you.

Dart little M Block, 350 mains, 4.125" bore
9.005 Deck Height
Eagle 3.875" Crank
Eagle 6" Rods
SRP Dome Pistons -3 cc (13.5:1)
.720/.630 lift Howards cam
Dart Pro 1 215 aluminum heads

My program show over 700 HP, Then I'll maybe spray nitrous up to 150 HP. So I need a gasket to withstand all that. The Mr. Gaskets sounded the better when I looked at gaskets, but if there is a better way to go, I need to go there. Let me know what you'd do, and how to contact you.

[CNC BLOCKS]

After looking over this link I think he figured out what the hell I was talking about.
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=148085

[gremmen]

Yes I did. Both you & Bill were right in your thinking, just on different pages. After all this, I'm going to be an expret on Dart Little M's...LOL

So now I'm as far as just puttting on the intake manifold and carb. I promise I won't need help with that. Manifolds are easy, and I know Holley carbs really good. But wait, what about running water cross-over tubes between the heads. Do you run them rear to rear, or rear to front ?????????? Just kidding

Thanks to both of you for the help.