383 main caps

[Andrew]

I'm finally getting ready to start having machine work done for my 383 build. My block is a stock chevy 4 bolt main 010, 020 with stock 3924 main caps. My question is whether I can use the stock main caps or if I need to consider aftermarket main caps or splayed main caps? The combo is an 11.1 solid roller with a forged bottom end, shooting for 515 hp NA mostly drag race application with very little street. Thanks

[Trmnatr]

I'm finally getting ready to start having machine work done for my 383 build. My block is a stock chevy 4 bolt main 010, 020 with stock 3924 main caps. My question is whether I can use the stock main caps or if I need to consider aftermarket main caps or splayed main caps? The combo is an 11.1 solid roller with a forged bottom end, shooting for 515 hp NA mostly drag race application with very little street. Thanks

I would go with Milodon 4 bolt register straight bolt caps with studs or go with 4 bolt register milodon caps with splayed bolts and use bolts or studs

I have never found an ARP stud kit to work with Milodon caps,, you have to use Milodon studs

Carl on here AKA CNC BLOCKS sells program billet caps if you want billet

Either way, both milodon or program are both good caps,,, see what your machine shop prefers to install

[want-a-be]

Your block will handle what you're wanting to make. I see no reason to spend money on billet caps for what you're wanting to do.

Don't skimp on good machine work.

Don

[CNC BLOCKS]

At 515 horse I would either go with a billet 4 bolt replacement cap, But billet spalyed caps are the way to go. And with the added stroke it will tend to side load the caps and will some time show thay are walking in the registers.

Look in a GM catolog and see what they rate a stock cap block at then one with 2482 center caps ETC.

Here is a pic of a 3412 cap that broke in a 420 horse engine and its not the only one we have seen over the years.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/CNCBLOCKS/brokencap.jpg

We use the Program flat bottom caps as they are alot easeir to fit as stepped caps require some Bridge port work to get a good fit. The Program caps have a 10 degree outter bolt holeswhich will not get you into the water jackets.

Before you do any thing with your block have it sonic tested for cylinder wall thickness.

For a few bucks more the Dart SHP block would be a good option if you block doen't make it.

Here is a pic of a block we installed spayed center caps and a front billet and straped the rear main cap.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y276/CNCBLOCKS/SPLAYEDCAPS020.jpg

Good luck with your build

[Awesome Bill]

Your stock block will handle that power with no problems @ all. After market steel caps offer little to no advantage. It is still pulling straight down and the stock cast or steel for that matter caps only break if you have other issues like someone not balancing the assembly correctly.

I have to agree with everyone on the splayed caps if you just want to throw $750.00 away. It will pick up the bottom end strength. But you can purchase a brand new SHP block from me and be way ahead of the game and not worry about ever splitting a cylinder wall with the weak GM stuff. Some do some don't. Hope this helps.

[CNC BLOCKS]

Your stock block will handle that power with no problems @ all. After market steel caps offer little to no advantage. It is still pulling straight down and the stock cast or steel for that matter caps only break if you have other issues like someone not balancing the assembly correctly.

I have to agree with everyone on the splayed caps if you just want to throw $750.00 away. It will pick up the bottom end strength. But you can purchase a brand new SHP block from me and be way ahead of the game and not worry about ever splitting a cylinder wall with the weak GM stuff. Some do some don't. Hope this helps.


Gee in one breath you say that after market caps offer little to no adavantage and then you say it will pick up bottom end strenth HMMMMMMMMMM.

And a 350 Chevy the cylinders are at a 45 dgree angle and on the combustion stroke does not push straight down on the main caps, I can see this on a inline 4 or 6 or any inline engine. But it does not happen on V-8 engines.

A least GM on their 400 - 2 block blocks made the caps wider because of the added stroke so the caps were more stable.

[want-a-be]

Wow,....I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. I have to say,...anytime I've seen a cap broken/cracked in a block I've always been able to track it back to a root cause. It can be any number of things. Alot of times it can be tracked back to how the cap was installed in the first place. I can't say how many times I've had guys come in telling me it happened when he was torqueing the caps down. In the broken cap picture,...did the pump gear take out the cap or the other way around? Was that cap checked for cracks before installation? If so,...was it also checked inside the bolt hole? There aren't any cookie cutter answers to all the problems we come across.

Of course installing a beefier cap is going to stiffen up the bottom end a bit. I don't think Bill was saying it wouldn't. I think he was just saying that for this application they weren't needed. Will they help? Of course they will. But are they needed in this application? Thats obviously a matter of opinion. An opinion that was formed before any of us even asked how many PRMS this engine will be turned up to. If Andrew is going to 9500 RPMs then yeppers you need the Billet caps. No more then 7500,...get a good line hone and install the caps correctly along with a good balance job. You should not have any problems. imo

Wow,...what did we do back when the only performance products out there was made by the big 3 auto makers? How did they make the power on those stock rods/cranks/blocks, and heads at the time? Were they NUTZ or something?!?! What were they thinking? Back when Modified Eliminator was all the rage people like Hank the Crank was "D" stroking stock 283 cranks for the class. And teams Like the Wayne County Speed Shop were taking those same stock parts and shifting at around 12000 RPMs. ( that wasn't a misprint btw ) Did Chevy intend or rate that crank to twist up that high,...I doubt it. But they did it and it lived cause they knew how to make the stock stuff live. As they did with all the other stock components.

Andrew more then likely has a budget for his total package,...unless he has a sponsor in these budget tightening days. I feel like it's my job as an engine builder to use his budget to build him the best engine he can afford. If he wants the billet caps and they fit in his budget let him get them. But I'm betting he has other areas in his build he would like to apply that $750.00.

Spend your money wisely Andrew,... take in as many engine builders opinions that you can. And filter out what you think you don't need and use the rest. I've seen alot of guys spend money where they didn't really need it and then skimp on where they should have. Some are directed that way just so their machinest can make the money on the machine work. Fortunatly on this board we have good people trying to steer guys seeking help in the right direction. Sometimes we differ greatly on those opinions, obviously.

I'm not taking or defending any sides on the issue but my own. And I'm not going to get drawn into a heated debate. I enjoy reading both CNC Blocks and Awsome Bills' posts alot. ( except when things are heated ) They are both very good at what they do.

Sorry for the rant it wasn't intended when I started the post.

Don

[CNC BLOCKS]

Wow,....I guess I've been doing it wrong all these years. I have to say,...anytime I've seen a cap broken/cracked in a block I've always been able to track it back to a root cause. It can be any number of things. Alot of times it can be tracked back to how the cap was installed in the first place. I can't say how many times I've had guys come in telling me it happened when he was torqueing the caps down. In the broken cap picture,...did the pump gear take out the cap or the other way around? Was that cap checked for cracks before installation? If so,...was it also checked inside the bolt hole? There aren't any cookie cutter answers to all the problems we come across.

Of course installing a beefier cap is going to stiffen up the bottom end a bit. I don't think Bill was saying it wouldn't. I think he was just saying that for this application they weren't needed. Will they help? Of course they will. But are they needed in this application? Thats obviously a matter of opinion. An opinion that was formed before any of us even asked how many PRMS this engine will be turned up to. If Andrew is going to 9500 RPMs then yeppers you need the Billet caps. No more then 7500,...get a good line hone and install the caps correctly along with a good balance job. You should not have any problems. imo

Wow,...what did we do back when the only performance products out there was made by the big 3 auto makers? How did they make the power on those stock rods/cranks/blocks, and heads at the time? Were they NUTZ or something?!?! What were they thinking? Back when Modified Eliminator was all the rage people like Hank the Crank was "D" stroking stock 283 cranks for the class. And teams Like the Wayne County Speed Shop were taking those same stock parts and shifting at around 12000 RPMs. ( that wasn't a misprint btw ) Did Chevy intend or rate that crank to twist up that high,...I doubt it. But they did it and it lived cause they knew how to make the stock stuff live. As they did with all the other stock components.

Andrew more then likely has a budget for his total package,...unless he has a sponsor in these budget tightening days. I feel like it's my job as an engine builder to use his budget to build him the best engine he can afford. If he wants the billet caps and they fit in his budget let him get them. But I'm betting he has other areas in his build he would like to apply that $750.00.

Spend your money wisely Andrew,... take in as many engine builders opinions that you can. And filter out what you think you don't need and use the rest. I've seen alot of guys spend money where they didn't really need it and then skimp on where they should have. Some are directed that way just so their machinest can make the money on the machine work. Fortunatly on this board we have good people trying to steer guys seeking help in the right direction. Sometimes we differ greatly on those opinions, obviously.

I'm not taking or defending any sides on the issue but my own. And I'm not going to get drawn into a heated debate. I enjoy reading both CNC Blocks and Awsome Bills' posts alot. ( except when things are heated ) They are both very good at what they do.

Sorry for the rant it wasn't intended when I started the post.

Don

Any time some one comes in the shop and wants to use stock caps that GM rates a 350 horse or so I have a steel bucket of broken caps and caps that look like they are welded on the bottoms that I have collected over the last 36 years or so, After seeing this they opt for a better block or better caps.

Just comparing apples to apples here do you machine blocks or are you just an assembler??

If I am going to build an engine 500 plus horse I don't skimp as I have seen what happens to those that skimp.

I deal with a couple hundred blocks a year and probably 500 plus emails and phone calls on broken parts and why did it happen questions.

It all depends on how reliable of an engine he wants and can afford.

Thats why we don't build budget engines.

But our main bus. is blue printing blocks.

[want-a-be]

Yes,...I do machine blocks....

Don

[CNC BLOCKS]

Yes,...I do machine blocks....

Don


To what extent??

Thanks Carl

[want-a-be]

What are you getting at Carl?!?!?!?

Can I deck a block to within .001 of what I'm wanting the deckheight to be,...yes I can.

Can I hone a block to .0002 variance, or less, from top to bottom on every cylinder,...yes I can.

Can I line hone a block and get everycap to where I want it. Yea,.. I can do that,....and I don't even have to go on line to every chat room on the net to air dirty laundry that a cap needs to be cut to get it to clean up!!!! If I did have that kind of problem I would have used more TACT and gotten ahold of Dart behind the scenes and addressed the problem. I'm still trying to figure out how you kept your dealership after pulling that stunt!!!! Guys like me who DON"T have a deal with Dart and would love to have one still support their product. But no...someone like you who seems to have grown up with a friggin silver spoon in your friggin mouth have to try and put down everyone around you in the name of making a dollar. How many of your customers have you gone out and lined their chassis out because the hp you made them changed how it works. I do every one who asks...engine customer or NOT!!!! You know why? No you don't,...because you're only in it for the money end of it. And by reading your last few posts here,...you could care less about the little guy who is on a tight budget. I am concerned about it. No,...I'm not a high end cnc shop. But I'm betting with the same exact parts I'll beat what you have to offer. No,... I can't afford the $50,000 inventory to be able to BUY into a Dart dealership,...but if I ever get a deal, you can bet that I'm not going to trash them on every web site that you post on. Get off and stay off my back. You're not even close to the kind of person that I am when it comes to helping people out with their problems. I don't have my hand out for payment after I do it.

I'll address you later when I've cooled down a bit.

Don

[want-a-be]

BTW Carl,...are you here to help people or just to stir crap. Because a huge percentage of your posts here are attacking someone here or Dart themselves. I personally am fed up with it.
Don

[Trmnatr]

What are you getting at Carl?!?!?!?

Can I deck a block to within .001 of what I'm wanting the deckheight to be,...yes I can.

Can I hone a block to .0002 variance, or less, from top to bottom on every cylinder,...yes I can.

Can I line hone a block and get everycap to where I want it. Yea,.. I can do that,....and I don't even have to go on line to every chat room on the net to air dirty laundry that a cap needs to be cut to get it to clean up!!!! If I did have that kind of problem I would have used more TACT and gotten ahold of Dart behind the scenes and addressed the problem. I'm still trying to figure out how you kept your dealership after pulling that stunt!!!! Guys like me who DON"T have a deal with Dart and would love to have one still support their product. But no...someone like you who seems to have grown up with a friggin silver spoon in your friggin mouth have to try and put down everyone around you in the name of making a dollar. How many of your customers have you gone out and lined their chassis out because the hp you made them changed how it works. I do every one who asks...engine customer or NOT!!!! You know why? No you don't,...because you're only in it for the money end of it. And by reading your last few posts here,...you could care less about the little guy who is on a tight budget. I am concerned about it. No,...I'm not a high end cnc shop. But I'm betting with the same exact parts I'll beat what you have to offer. No,... I can't afford the $50,000 inventory to be able to BUY into a Dart dealership,...but if I ever get a deal, you can bet that I'm not going to trash them on every web site that you post on. Get off and stay off my back. You're not even close to the kind of person that I am when it comes to helping people out with their problems. I don't have my hand out for payment after I do it.

I'll address you later when I've cooled down a bit.

Don

I did a '29 ford,, alot of work,, with all the $$$ he spent between the engine and the car i discounted the ticket. Bottom line i lost about $250. When he picked the car up i got a $1,000 tip in cash (largest i have ever got)

[want-a-be]

I don't go to a track without ending up under some other teams car or hood. Most of them I've not turned a wrench for, and probably never will. They already have their engine guys. All offer money when I'm done. I never take it cause thats not why I was willing to help out. If they decide to let me do their engine program later then I'll make a few bucks that way. If getting to be big time means I have to screw the little guy then I don't want to get any bigger then I am right now.

Some of us still remember starting out in a " 2 car garage " and won't soon forget who made them.

Don

[CNC BLOCKS]

BTW Carl,...are you here to help people or just to stir crap. Because a huge percentage of your posts here are attacking someone here or Dart themselves. I personally am fed up with it.
Don

Don

Never attacked you at all and if you feel I did it was not intended that way I wanted to compare apples to apples here But I see your tihin skinned thats for sure!!!

[CNC BLOCKS]

What are you getting at Carl?!?!?!?

Can I deck a block to within .001 of what I'm wanting the deckheight to be,...yes I can.

Can I hone a block to .0002 variance, or less, from top to bottom on every cylinder,...yes I can.

Can I line hone a block and get everycap to where I want it. Yea,.. I can do that,....and I don't even have to go on line to every chat room on the net to air dirty laundry that a cap needs to be cut to get it to clean up!!!! If I did have that kind of problem I would have used more TACT and gotten ahold of Dart behind the scenes and addressed the problem. I'm still trying to figure out how you kept your dealership after pulling that stunt!!!! Guys like me who DON"T have a deal with Dart and would love to have one still support their product. But no...someone like you who seems to have grown up with a friggin silver spoon in your friggin mouth have to try and put down everyone around you in the name of making a dollar. How many of your customers have you gone out and lined their chassis out because the hp you made them changed how it works. I do every one who asks...engine customer or NOT!!!! You know why? No you don't,...because you're only in it for the money end of it. And by reading your last few posts here,...you could care less about the little guy who is on a tight budget. I am concerned about it. No,...I'm not a high end cnc shop. But I'm betting with the same exact parts I'll beat what you have to offer. No,... I can't afford the $50,000 inventory to be able to BUY into a Dart dealership,...but if I ever get a deal, you can bet that I'm not going to trash them on every web site that you post on. Get off and stay off my back. You're not even close to the kind of person that I am when it comes to helping people out with their problems. I don't have my hand out for payment after I do it.

I'll address you later when I've cooled down a bit.

Don


Pulling what stunt?? I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth thats for sure as I have worked hard all my life for what I have I run 3 businesses that seem to do fine, My trucking bus was down last year but that to be expected in these times.

Again I never trashed Dart in any wayand you only one of a few that feel that way. Seems like Dart and Dick Maskins don't feel that way.


And it is interesting to see what other people have for equipment and learn what they do but I can sure tell you must be intimadated by me or my question. And again that was not my intent.

Interesting post I must say and thanks for the little info you did give as you took this the wrong way I can tell.

Carry on

[want-a-be]

intimidate me you do not.

[Dart Vader]

Pulling what stunt?? I was not born with a silver spoon in my mouth thats for sure as I have worked hard all my life for what I have I run 3 businesses that seem to do fine, My trucking bus was down last year but that to be expected in these times.

Again I never trashed Dart in any wayand you only one of a few that feel that way. Seems like Dart and Dick Maskins don't feel that way.

And it is interesting to see what other people have for equipment and learn what they do but I can sure tell you must be intimadated by me or my question. And again that was not my intent.

Interesting post I must say and thanks for the little info you did give as you took this the wrong way I can tell.
Carry on
I've asked others not to take a condescending tone on this board before and I will ask the same of you. Please try to avoid starting fights and instead focus on contributing useful info to posters.

[Awesome Bill]

Hey Frank, get your head out of your butt and read the post, what I said, is that if you just purchased a set of steel 4 bolt caps, installed them, then align bored and as you would do, then hone them, your still not making the block any better than his stock 4 bolt main capped block. Now listen to me, if you do want to throw away $750.00 and install 4 bolt splayed caps on to a 450-500hp street engine, you will make a nice block as your pictures so beautifully show, but it still does not make his assemlby warrant it other than just having them. Now if he comes to your shop and you sell them to him, thats fine, but don't hollar when we suggest you don't have to do it on this board.

The stock 4 bolt unit will handle 600 hp most of the time with no problems. And as for broken caps, maybe the guy who put all those ones you have that are broken there on with an impact or slapped them with a hammer just to hear them snap loudly into place when it was still up on one edge, when the bolt went tight from the air impact on it and it slammed down. May it have come from that or something stupid people do?

Donovon still uses cast caps as well as most indy engines. So if they are so bad why do people who know a ton more than either of us say we are silly to use steel caps? Dart even has them available for every block they do even the aluminum. I will say that the stock 2 bolt main GM and Ford stuff out there is weak buts its not junk.

Up to 500 even 600 hp with studs and proper machine work, as I have stated in other post you must have in your memory bank, I and others have used these applications in cases where it is very unsafe and it worked. I will admit I have never had a broken main cap in steel or cast coming from to much power. I have seen mains pulled right out of the 2 and 4 bolt Ford and Chevy blocks and that is more of what we see. Even the Motown stuff, Got 1 of them setting in my floor and use is as show and tell. So no one is attacking you, surely not me, I just don't like it when someone is usually going way over budget for a street engine and someone comes along and says you need to spend another $750 to a $1000 to make it work. If you can't get a 2 or 4 bolt to work in street applicaitons even with a little juice, then you have forgotten how to do it and just moved on to a process to sell.

[CNC BLOCKS]

Hey Frank, get your head out of your butt and read the post, what I said, is that if you just purchased a set of steel 4 bolt caps, installed them, then align bored and as you would do, then hone them, your still not making the block any better than his stock 4 bolt main capped block. Now listen to me, if you do want to throw away $750.00 and install 4 bolt splayed caps on to a 450-500hp street engine, you will make a nice block as your pictures so beautifully show, but it still does not make his assemlby warrant it other than just having them. Now if he comes to your shop and you sell them to him, thats fine, but don't hollar when we suggest you don't have to do it on this board.

The stock 4 bolt unit will handle 600 hp most of the time with no problems. And as for broken caps, maybe the guy who put all those ones you have that are broken there on with an impact or slapped them with a hammer just to hear them snap loudly into place when it was still up on one edge, when the bolt went tight from the air impact on it and it slammed down. May it have come from that or something stupid people do?

Donovon still uses cast caps as well as most indy engines. So if they are so bad why do people who know a ton more than either of us say we are silly to use steel caps? Dart even has them available for every block they do even the aluminum. I will say that the stock 2 bolt main GM and Ford stuff out there is weak buts its not junk.

Up to 500 even 600 hp with studs and proper machine work, as I have stated in other post you must have in your memory bank, I and others have used these applications in cases where it is very unsafe and it worked. I will admit I have never had a broken main cap in steel or cast coming from to much power. I have seen mains pulled right out of the 2 and 4 bolt Ford and Chevy blocks and that is more of what we see. Even the Motown stuff, Got 1 of them setting in my floor and use is as show and tell. So no one is attacking you, surely not me, I just don't like it when someone is usually going way over budget for a street engine and someone comes along and says you need to spend another $750 to a $1000 to make it work. If you can't get a 2 or 4 bolt to work in street applicaitons even with a little juice, then you have forgotten how to do it and just moved on to a process to sell.


We build alot of circle track engines that are in the 550 horse range and I can tell you this stock caps don't cut it as we have seen enough webbings that have cracked and caps walking ETC from guys not using better caps. We have sure repaired a lot of blocks with billet splayed caps that have had problems with caps flexing. And when the caps are not stable it does cause premature bearing wear higher oil temps. ETC.

And using splayed caps ties the cap into the oil pan rails which makes for a much better peice.

The block in the pic we only rate at 600 horse.

Just my opinion but at 450 horse and up I just like a better cap then a stock grey cast cap.

The Donovon uses cast nodular iron caps on their blocks and they are tough caps thats for sure.

I have seen guys have problems using stock caps with high horse power stroker engines.

We get alot of calls and emails about problems with stock caps and using studs does nnot make the grey cast caps stronger as its still a grey cast cap with better hardware, Its like putting ARP rod bolts in an old set of rods it don't make the rods any stronger its just better hardware in an old set of rods.

Whats interesting we work on OEM blocks every day trying to make them better then stock and you posted you only work on Dart blocks nothing else, so I may have a little better advise on OEM blocks where we do a lot of work on them.

Some of our engines we build we are using 2500.00 dollar cranks in them with Dyers, Crower, Lentz or Carrillo rods and nowing my customers they would not want to use stock caps in the 20,000.00 engine.

Dependability is key at our shop so we try to use the best parts we can buy for what the rules allow.

Good comment about the Rottler machine:)

[Dart Vader]

Hey Frank, get your head out of your butt and read the post,
Seriously... we get it, you don't like each other. It's old now. If you disagree, by all means make it known but don't do it like this.

The board is getting flooded with arguments. It isn't helping anyone.
Next person to start this crap again gets to take a week off from posting and cool their heels.

[Awesome Bill]

I agree with you 100% about everything you have said. I did not mean in any way to suggest we do not do any stock block work. We do a ton of it. What I meant is that now with the SHP block, I will never put splayed caps, fully machine another block again because it is not cost effective and only half as strong as the DART. Now if the applications demands stock castings, Bowtie is always allowed. But to take a stock 350/400 block, blueprint it put any type of steel cap on it, lifter bore it as good as a SHP, square deck it, bore and hone with plates, cam bearings freeze plugs you know you will have 1500-2000.00 in it. DART again has fixed that.

I have never said what you do is wrong and most likely better than what we are able to do in some applications, I just can't charge that much and look the guy in the eye and say its as good or better than a DART SHP even if I have to touch it up. The cylinder walls are junk compared to the DART stuff and nothing but filling it will help it. So if you can sell that service to every customer or to whomever that is great and it will help to make the block better. Never said it would not. I really don't take GM rating of 400-450 hp on any block seriously knowing what I have put most blocks threw.

The webbing seems good enough but in all case you will find one crack. Caps breaking is not a common deal with us. We do see them but the ones we have seen lately have been cracked and the customer never knew it. Bearings looked decent and the crank was not cracked in this last one. #2 DOA cracked big as life. If you can do it and make money do it. But for me, I will push the SHP if it is just becasue I know the customer will not hurt himself by going with this block.

I don't see what the administrator was talking about on this last post and took no offense from CARLS response. We have in your words already cooled off. You should of rung in 2 weeks ago or make it a rule or something, then it will never get out of hand. Sorry if I caused any ill feelings to anyone. Not meant to do that.

[CNC BLOCKS]

Bill

We deal with a lot of OEM blocks because of rules and before the SHP blocks guys did not want the heavy blocks because of nose weight and maost of these engines run up to 575 horse.

Circle track engines require better parts then stock caps and I can say for sure as stock caps will not hold up.

I agree the SHP block is a super good peice its rated at 600 horse with Nodular iron caps and its hard to believe that a stock grey cast cap block is as good as a Dart SHP block.

Guys do spend alot on 010 blocks to race, clean & mag, sonic test, lifter bore work, splayed caps, front billet caps and a strap on the rear main, .875 or .904 lifter bores, boring and plate honing, stroker clearance and machining the cam tunel to BBC is very common with the engines we build. Those blocks all machined run about 1700 dollars. We machine alot of these type blocks for othere shops all over. We work with alot of other shops on engine combos and what has worked for our shop.

The same work to a SHP would run 2500 dollars and these blocks can be dry sumped, Most rules require a GM P/N on the blocks that are run :confused:.

Good day to all

Carl

[Awesome Bill]

The Dart SHP block needs none of that and will outperform any stock GM standard block. The cylinder walls and main webbing say what hp it will hold. Putting a set of STEEL 4 bolt caps on a block will do absolutetly nothing for the main webbing as you have said and for the thin cylinder walls. A set of splayed caps does help tremendously.

@ 4.185 bore, theres still over .200 left on a SHP block. You could not split that with 1000 hp. I personally have already made over 800hp with a small blower with a 400" engine and there was absolutely no blow by. The cylinder walls and main webbing us the weak link in the Chevy blocks and you or no one else can help that. Bore a .010 block .060 and it will break sooner or later with any real power. I have used them in some pretty wild applications and they have held up, but then again, I have used them in street engines and nothing but split cylinder walls.

So if you can get someone to spend $1700.00, more like than $2500.00 in a stock GM block, with lifter boring as good as the SHP stuff, that is up to the guy paying the bill. But, the SHP eliminates the need for expensive probing and blueprinting of a brand new block that has already had the best equipment in the business machine it.

By the way, blocks were never intended to be perfect, run them 1 time and you will see that. If its perfect on your machine, send it to RM or even me, and run a check and they will find something out. So perfect blocks don't run any better. Side to side .001 means nothing in power. But a killer hone and someone who knows how to do a proper valve job and now your making power.

So splitting hairs over stock blocks staying together is like spitting into the wind. I for one am glad I can offer a real hp block that won't break under most conditions even in all out racing to a customer that would normally spend a ton in prepping a stock 20-30 year old block. Stock and street light strip usuage, the stock 2 and 4 bolt gm blocks do fine. I have found most Cracked caps come from the assembler as Don has said. Seen a lot of hitting the cap with a hammer just to hear it snap in to place. Also impact guns running the cap bolts in. These caps are very strong but brittle as a dropped stock camshaft. You'll have 2 pieces. Have fun.

[Trmnatr]

The Dart SHP block needs none of that and will outperform any stock GM standard block. The cylinder walls and main webbing say what hp it will hold. Putting a set of STEEL 4 bolt caps on a block will do absolutetly nothing for the main webbing as you have said and for the thin cylinder walls. A set of splayed caps does help tremendously.

@ 4.185 bore, theres still over .200 left on a SHP block. You could not split that with 1000 hp. I personally have already made over 800hp with a small blower with a 400" engine and there was absolutely no blow by. The cylinder walls and main webbing us the weak link in the Chevy blocks and you or no one else can help that. Bore a .010 block .060 and it will break sooner or later with any real power. I have used them in some pretty wild applications and they have held up, but then again, I have used them in street engines and nothing but split cylinder walls.

So if you can get someone to spend $1700.00, more like than $2500.00 in a stock GM block, with lifter boring as good as the SHP stuff, that is up to the guy paying the bill. But, the SHP eliminates the need for expensive probing and blueprinting of a brand new block that has already had the best equipment in the business machine it.

By the way, blocks were never intended to be perfect, run them 1 time and you will see that. If its perfect on your machine, send it to RM or even me, and run a check and they will find something out. So perfect blocks don't run any better. Side to side .001 means nothing in power. But a killer hone and someone who knows how to do a proper valve job and now your making power.

So splitting hairs over stock blocks staying together is like spitting into the wind. I for one am glad I can offer a real hp block that won't break under most conditions even in all out racing to a customer that would normally spend a ton in prepping a stock 20-30 year old block. Stock and street light strip usuage, the stock 2 and 4 bolt gm blocks do fine. I have found most Cracked caps come from the assembler as Don has said. Seen a lot of hitting the cap with a hammer just to hear it snap in to place. Also impact guns running the cap bolts in. These caps are very strong but brittle as a dropped stock camshaft. You'll have 2 pieces. Have fun.


I think we all agree about the Dart block being stronger, Bill, myself and Carl

Some applications do require a GM block such as a Super Stock on a budget that doesnt put the money in the bow tie block. Without a question the Dart SHP is a good choice.

I like the little m very much, will be using one real soon for a 377cid

I think there is some confusion when we mention 4 bolt caps being installed, we all are talking about 4 bolt "splayed" caps even if we dont say "splayed" as thats what i know i use and Bill and Carl does

The big question is,, When is NHRA gonna allow the SHP block to be used in Super Stock over an 010 or Bowtie block ????????

Maybe Maskin should have a talk with NHRA