New SHP Blocks

[MiaBlackStang]

Are the new SHP 302 blocks going to require any machining? If so, what.

[Dart Vader]

The SHP block is a finished block and will be ready for use after the end user gives it a finish hone (which is neccessary for any new block).

[MiaBlackStang]

So basically your saying after a finish hone I can slap in my rotating assembly, some head gaskets and a set of heads and its ready to go? How does this block differ from the machining required to prep a Dart Iron Eagle or Sportsman? What head gaskets would you recommend for the SHP block?

[Dart Vader]

You really just need to check main clearance and size accordingly, check lifter bore and clearance size, and finish hone bores for any of the blocks you listed to be ready for use.

Any head gasket that will work on a conventional style block will generally work with our SHP block.

[Brian@ADperformance.com]

You really just need to check main clearance and size accordingly, check lifter bore and clearance size, and finish hone bores for any of the blocks you listed to be ready for use.

Any head gasket that will work on a conventional style block will generally work with our SHP block.


I think it's a fine line to walk when telling customers a block is "finish machined."

Yes, the block has been CNC machined and finished, less cylinders, by DART prior to shipping. However, this does not account for final sizing, component variance or specific surface RA finishes, ect.

Any of DART's blocks require a machinist to finish them before being ready for assembly, they are not ready assemble legos.

[Trmnatr]

I think it's a fine line to walk when telling customers a block is "finish machined."

Yes, the block has been CNC machined and finished, less cylinders, by DART prior to shipping. However, this does not account for final sizing, component variance or specific surface RA finishes, ect.

Any of DART's blocks require a machinist to finish them before being ready for assembly, they are not ready assemble legos.

X2

Almost every block ends up line honed at the machine shop

[CNC BLOCKS]

X2

Almost every block ends up line honed at the machine shop

The ones we have been getting have been fine and we have been line honing them if the customer wants studs and even then we just dust them out to the high side and they have been fine so far.

[Awesome Bill]

Actually putting them on the high side puts all the bearing crush out to max limits. This is a no no for High Performance. I have found when putting it dead on high side, if you can do dead on with a hone, puts the bearing at a greater rate for spinning a main. The crush of the bearing to the block is what holds the bearing in place. So putting everything on the high side is really non sense, especially if the customer is paying for a brand new block. Also, when this is done on a brand new block, after seasoning is over, the bores tend to open up. So now you have a block that is oversized on main tolerance .0005 or so and that is considered out by a ½. So we never try to put it there just to do it. We like to see max middle of the road so there is always room for a dusting. Just what we have found to work very well. We never let it go out of the green low side!

We have had 10 big m big blocks run threw the shop in the last month and not one had to be touched on the mains. All have been in the green or middle of the road. 4 Little Ms and 2 SHP units that we also sold and were untouched.

[CNC BLOCKS]

Actually putting them on the high side puts all the bearing crush out to max limits. This is a no no for High Performance. I have found when putting it dead on high side, if you can do dead on with a hone, puts the bearing at a greater rate for spinning a main. The crush of the bearing to the block is what holds the bearing in place. So putting everything on the high side is really non sense, especially if the customer is paying for a brand new block. Also, when this is done on a brand new block, after seasoning is over, the bores tend to open up. So now you have a block that is oversized on main tolerance .0005 or so and that is considered out by a ½. So we never try to put it there just to do it. We like to see max middle of the road so there is always room for a dusting. Just what we have found to work very well. We never let it go out of the green low side!

We have had 10 big m big blocks run threw the shop in the last month and not one had to be touched on the mains. All have been in the green or middle of the road. 4 Little Ms and 2 SHP units that we also sold and were untouched.

I can tell you don't line hone blocks by your post, 99% of the shops we do work for and even our own shop we line hone up on the high side and no problems.

Ever buy any CNC Bowtie blocks as we see them on the high side all the time same with the 4 bolt replacement blocks GM sells and they sell alot of those blocks and no one is spinning bearings that I know of.

It maybe non sense when a shop can't line hone but we have 2 Sunnen line hone set ups and we have zero problems with the blocks we machine.

As far as main bores opening up after a season on Dart and Bowtie blocks we really don't see that we see them tighten up if anything.

We only do what the customers want.

We have seen blocks from the Cup shops and have seen the main lines up to .001 and the bearings that were in the block were nothing special same thing you and I buy. and any other Cup blocks we see tend to be on the high side.

How many 010 block guys do nothing to main lines and I bet 30% of them the housing bores are over size more so the ones out of heavy duty appications and these guys have not been spinning bearings.

If your spinning bearings because main lines are on the high side you may want to check your measuring equipment or buy some quality measuring equipment.

Guys that don't line hone will always argue this point.

If your not line honing shame on you

Spinning main bearings because the main lines are on the high side is totaly BS

Bill I never see any Pics of your equipment in your shop now I see why :D:D

[MiaBlackStang]

Any news on when Dart will be shipping out these new blocks to their authorized dealers?

[CNC BLOCKS]

The last time I talked to Richard I thought they might be out by now and they werre going to call when they had some to release

[Awesome Bill]

I own a rig to transport my 4+ drag cars that cost more than your whole shop put together and most likely what you live in. I don't think you want to compare apples for apples. We have all Sunnen Equipment for line honing. I don't think putting pictures of a stock block with main caps up on a flat steel table very interesting, what are you 20 years old or something. Proper Bearing crush is very important and very easy to loose working within less than .001". You squeal bloody murder about .0004 on a line bore. I think you should just leave this alone and stick to helping people if you can with real problems.

[CNC BLOCKS]

I own a rig to transport my 4+ drag cars that cost more than your whole shop put together and most likely what you live in. I don't think you want to compare apples for apples. We have all Sunnen Equipment for line honing. I don't think putting pictures of a stock block with main caps up on a flat steel table very interesting, what are you 20 years old or something. Proper Bearing crush is very important and very easy to loose working within less than .001". You squeal bloody murder about .0004 on a line bore. I think you should just leave this alone and stick to helping people if you can with real problems.

Ya I do worry about .0004 on a main line and so do my customer as thats the differance between you and I just push stuff out the door with .0004 differance on the housing bores,

I guess you haven't seen the pics of the blower engines we build that hve won championships first and second 6 years in a row maybe 7 years as I have lost track.

I have had some calls about having rods on the high side as well and we have not experianced and spun bearings yet.

Putting mains up on the high side is going to cause the mains to spin come on get a life, It sounds like you have had problems spinning bearings and you have to blame it on something and not paying attention to detail and I see you tolerances are sloppy when and engine builder when an engine builder will send work out the door .0004 off.

GEEE yesterday we shipped an SHP block and rotator to Hendrick Motorsports in Charlotte NC so I must be doing something right.

We machine Dart blocks, and we are on a deep deal on the Bowtie stuff as well and we on a deal with Brodix as well and we always have some thing to do. And we do work on alot of OEM blocks as some of the tracks don't allow after market blocks and thats good money.

I know your not allowed on speedtalk any more :D as I post alot of pics over there on alot of blocks we machine.

Have a good day Bill Cannon

Bill I look over 3 businesses I own so I think I do pretty well

[3V Performance]

I can tell you don't line hone blocks by your post, 99% of the shops we do work for and even our own shop we line hone up on the high side and no problems.

Ever buy any CNC Bowtie blocks as we see them on the high side all the time same with the 4 bolt replacement blocks GM sells and they sell alot of those blocks and no one is spinning bearings that I know of.

It maybe non sense when a shop can't line hone but we have 2 Sunnen line hone set ups and we have zero problems with the blocks we machine.

As far as main bores opening up after a season on Dart and Bowtie blocks we really don't see that we see them tighten up if anything.

We only do what the customers want.

We have seen blocks from the Cup shops and have seen the main lines up to .001 and the bearings that were in the block were nothing special same thing you and I buy. and any other Cup blocks we see tend to be on the high side.

How many 010 block guys do nothing to main lines and I bet 30% of them the housing bores are over size more so the ones out of heavy duty appications and these guys have not been spinning bearings.

If your spinning bearings because main lines are on the high side you may want to check your measuring equipment or buy some quality measuring equipment.

Guys that don't line hone will always argue this point.

If your not line honing shame on you

Spinning main bearings because the main lines are on the high side is totaly BS

Bill I never see any Pics of your equipment in your shop now I see why :D:D


Like Carl, we have many up on the high side of the aproved housing bore spec. If a brg manufacture gives a min and a max and a max does not crush brg enough then one would think the min would distort the brg leaving only one size to be perfect.

[Awesome Bill]

We don't have mains spinning, and when the parting line is out .001 I do not get excited. The X is where I like it to be right on the middle of the road. If the entire hole is out to high side specs, this puts less crush into the bearing and also transfers less heat out of the bearing threw metal transfer. We have found on blower engines that make 2500hp and up, putting the mains on the high side just push the bearing shell right out in less than 4 passes. Nothing helps stop this but what we have found is that a brand new block will run up to 10 passes before it deforms the main shell from nothing but power. It spreads the bearing out. So every 4 passes, the mains come out. It is only when the hole gets big is when we have after 4 passes the bearing is done. We pull the block to bring the main bore back down. Parting lines out .001 in my opinion on a new block is wrong. Bearings have that clearance built into them and don't need a parting line to be larger. When making little power, you can get away with a ton, but when making a lot of power, it better be tight even to .0005 to .00075 below low side specs.
We have a Sunnen Line hone that works very well. When we put caps on a block, we aline bore the three after install then touch them up with the hone. Nothing special here with that. For someone that is critical on a .0004 out of spec new block then be so liberal on high or low side clearance is just amazing to me.

[CNC BLOCKS]

We have a Sunnen Line hone that works very well. When we put caps on a block, we aline bore the three after install then touch them up with the hone. Nothing special here with that. For someone that is critical on a .0004 out of spec new block then be so liberal on high or low side clearance is just amazing to me.

I not the one fitting the bearings up and doing the final assembley and so far in the 9 years of CNC machining blocks and shipping them all over the place I have had no come backs or complaints. That has to say something.

It sounds like you work in .001 and I work in .0001 big differance between us!!! You have to remember I do work for a lot of other shop all the world anf they have the correct measuring equipment to check my work.

I am sure if I sent out work like you do being .0004 off I am sure I would enf up getting the block back and fix it.

You must be lucky as guys you ship to don't have the ability to measure out main lines.

WOW you ship out blocks .0004 differance from low to high, Whats your tolerance .001 LOL

[Awesome Bill]

.0001 to .0004 means absolutely nothing to anyone but people like you who claim it does. Because we can measure this now with our CNC equipment makes no more power than anything before. So what if the bore space is off .001, it makes no sense to worry about something that silly.

We don't try to make people think we are something specail because we measure to .0001. Whether you may think this or not, we know where to go and where not to. I just don't like putting anything on the very high side brand new. Don't mean it won't work or it will cause any problems. It is just if its on the low or even .0001-.0002 low, this will cause no problems as long as the minimum bearing clearance is achieved for what application we are working with.

You can put every machined area of any block you do dead on and when someone else checks it, it will be off! Your machine is not dead on compared to all the others out there. It is close most likely. I have had the chance to watch a complete machined block right off a machine like you have and when I told him to put the block back in and reprobe the block as if it was another one, the very best it could do was .002 with bore centers and deck height. This was a brand new machine! So I wonder what a 20 year old unit is? So when you act like this matters, it don't. Close enough in this area is fine. Aline bores are a little more of an area I like to keep as close to dead on as possible. But I never get up set if some of the blocks don't come right out perfect between machines. This scares people into thinking .001 is not good enough in some areas. I don't know of any clearances that .0005 will cause detremental damage to.

It is nice to have DRO's in .0001 but side to side, bore centers, lifter bores, etc etc are just not that critical. Now if we are building pro stock engines or comp engines, every man to him or her selves and the power will prove. But I have seen some jacked up stuff fly!.

So perfect means nothing when .0001 or .0002 is the guidline. I like others would love to have every measurement dead on. But take a block out of the machine and put it back in the machine and you know what you get! The story about in 9 years you have never had a come back is border line bull____! Every engine builder in the world that is worth he or her own salt knows everyone has come backs and have had problems. Now if you build 3 engines a year that may be possible as well as only put it together and not run it!

But do 100+ and the odds are stacked against you just in the parts areas. So you can claim to be perfect and never had a come back all you want, the very best of the boyz break their stuff all the time. NO ONE can be perfect and to claim that is ridiculous. I will be the first to say we have messed up and had problems. Either with new equipment, learning curves or employees who don't do their job.

But when it comes off the dyno and does not fail in any way, that is what we shoot for. We don't do any work unless we varify it with the dyno. If you just ship blocks out with out any way for someone to check them you can not say you have never had a problem. They just most likely could not varify why it blew up or had problems.

One thing we do here is take care of customers before we ship. We don't scare them into thinking every one else is not as good as us. We just do very good engine work and have the dyno and National wins to prove it. If you think you are the only machinest on the planet, you got some growing up to do. There are plenty of good machinest out there and very good engine builders. I am in no way the best or try to make people think I am. But we are good and don't claim to be perfect!

[CNC BLOCKS]

.0001 to .0004 means absolutely nothing to anyone but people like you who claim it does. Because we can measure this now with our CNC equipment makes no more power than anything before. So what if the bore space is off .001, it makes no sense to worry about something that silly.

We don't try to make people think we are something specail because we measure to .0001. Whether you may think this or not, we know where to go and where not to. I just don't like putting anything on the very high side brand new. Don't mean it won't work or it will cause any problems. It is just if its on the low or even .0001-.0002 low, this will cause no problems as long as the minimum bearing clearance is achieved for what application we are working with.

You can put every machined area of any block you do dead on and when someone else checks it, it will be off! Your machine is not dead on compared to all the others out there. It is close most likely. I have had the chance to watch a complete machined block right off a machine like you have and when I told him to put the block back in and reprobe the block as if it was another one, the very best it could do was .002 with bore centers and deck height. This was a brand new machine! So I wonder what a 20 year old unit is? So when you act like this matters, it don't. Close enough in this area is fine. Aline bores are a little more of an area I like to keep as close to dead on as possible. But I never get up set if some of the blocks don't come right out perfect between machines. This scares people into thinking .001 is not good enough in some areas. I don't know of any clearances that .0005 will cause detremental damage to.

It is nice to have DRO's in .0001 but side to side, bore centers, lifter bores, etc etc are just not that critical. Now if we are building pro stock engines or comp engines, every man to him or her selves and the power will prove. But I have seen some jacked up stuff fly!.

So perfect means nothing when .0001 or .0002 is the guidline. I like others would love to have every measurement dead on. But take a block out of the machine and put it back in the machine and you know what you get! The story about in 9 years you have never had a come back is border line bull____! Every engine builder in the world that is worth he or her own salt knows everyone has come backs and have had problems. Now if you build 3 engines a year that may be possible as well as only put it together and not run it!

But do 100+ and the odds are stacked against you just in the parts areas. So you can claim to be perfect and never had a come back all you want, the very best of the boyz break their stuff all the time. NO ONE can be perfect and to claim that is ridiculous. I will be the first to say we have messed up and had problems. Either with new equipment, learning curves or employees who don't do their job.

But when it comes off the dyno and does not fail in any way, that is what we shoot for. We don't do any work unless we varify it with the dyno. If you just ship blocks out with out any way for someone to check them you can not say you have never had a problem. They just most likely could not varify why it blew up or had problems.

One thing we do here is take care of customers before we ship. We don't scare them into thinking every one else is not as good as us. We just do very good engine work and have the dyno and National wins to prove it. If you think you are the only machinest on the planet, you got some growing up to do. There are plenty of good machinest out there and very good engine builders. I am in no way the best or try to make people think I am. But we are good and don't claim to be perfect!

Which CNC machine are you using ??? As there are none posted on your website!!

We have probing cycles built into our CNC machine that checks cylinder placement, deck heights, lifter bore placement ETC, we can check cam tunnel placement also.

.0004 means alot to the engine shop or engine assembler we are selling a block too. We sell alot to other engines shops all over plus we are on a deep deal with Bowtie blocks as well.

If we were selling blocks .0004 defferance in main line I would expect to get a call and get the block back to get it fixed.

We just sent one to Hendrick Motorsports in NC and they where very pleased on the job we did for them and said everything was spot on. And if you would have sent one of your blocks to them .004 tenths differance on the mains I am sure you would have got a call on that one.

In fact I will give the guy a call that is building the engine at Hendricks and ask him if they build there engines with the mains are off .0004 of from high to low.

I will let you know tomorrow.

Post a pic of you CNC machine if you would as I keep hearing about it but have never seen it yet how many axis 3 or 4 ??

[lun40119]

Easy Carl, he still owes me some vids of that 400 on the dyno......me first.

[CNC BLOCKS]

Easy Carl, he still owes me some vids of that 400 on the dyno......me first.


OK Jake let me know when you get yours and I know mine should be right after!!

I will take second to you.

[lun40119]

Did you write that book yet..........

[CNC BLOCKS]

Did you write that book yet..........

Working on it!!!!

[MiaBlackStang]

Hey so whats the word on this block? Has a new release date been set? are they available yet?

[CNC BLOCKS]

Hey so whats the word on this block? Has a new release date been set? are they available yet?

Dart was going to call when they had some done, but right now they are backed up on filling orders which is a good thing to have a company busy.

[CLAYTONRACING]

They are supposedly going out the door now. they are supposed to be shipping us the 4.125 bore versions on or about the 17th. So these should start showing up places any day now.

[CLAYTONRACING]

Just got the call from Dart. Our big bore blocks are out the door today.

[MiaBlackStang]

Just got the call from Dart. Our big bore blocks are out the door today.

What about the small bore blocks? Any idea when you will have them?

[CLAYTONRACING]

Those are already being shipped to dealers, I just had 4.125 bore blocks on order. I'm sure some of the other guys are probably about to receive their small bore stuff. Brian at AD performance might have some in the works, He usually has a lot of ford stuff.

[jerry clayton]

we were out showing the ford 4.125 shp block today and everybody was blown away by the quality appearance, splayed 4 bolt caps , etc but we were asked repeatedly about the 4 inch block. Why???? do people want to just switch 4 inch components they already have ????? Also lots of talk about the chevy shp including the new LT version--even had a guy at one place with a Buick Roadmaster!!!!!

[CNC BLOCKS]

Which CNC machine are you using ??? As there are none posted on your website!!

We have probing cycles built into our CNC machine that checks cylinder placement, deck heights, lifter bore placement ETC, we can check cam tunnel placement also.

.0004 means alot to the engine shop or engine assembler we are selling a block too. We sell alot to other engines shops all over plus we are on a deep deal with Bowtie blocks as well.

If we were selling blocks .0004 defferance in main line I would expect to get a call and get the block back to get it fixed.

We just sent one to Hendrick Motorsports in NC and they where very pleased on the job we did for them and said everything was spot on. And if you would have sent one of your blocks to them .004 tenths differance on the mains I am sure you would have got a call on that one.

In fact I will give the guy a call that is building the engine at Hendricks and ask him if they build there engines with the mains are off .0004 of from high to low.

I will let you know tomorrow.

Post a pic of you CNC machine if you would as I keep hearing about it but have never seen it yet how many axis 3 or 4 ??


Bill see your are back posting as I never got any info on your CNC machine Like asked for a month or so ago, Whats up with that??

[Awesome Bill]

Frank, you won't, all of our blocks our CNC machined with equipment that I know is as good in the industry as you can get and not as old as yours for sure. I have found out that CNC equipment is only as good as the operators and only as good as the assembler. Also, making a block dimensional near perfect, within .005 bore centers, 90° decks, aline bores within .0005 don't make a whole lot of power difference even if you could duplicate it every time. And you can't so don't even try. What I do know is that proper honing procedures, perfect valve jobs and proper assembly procedures and a real dyno make more power than any cnc machine ever has. So when you get the latter of what I just covered and not just a machine shop that puts main caps on junk blocks, come on down and check it out for yourself! We are overwhelmed with work and orders right now and have to hire another qualified person just to ease the load so I don't get as much time to answer questions for people who need it and don't want to measure who has the longest john! Not into it nor would I

[CNC BLOCKS]

Frank, you won't, all of our blocks our CNC machined with equipment that I know is as good in the industry as you can get and not as old as yours for sure. I have found out that CNC equipment is only as good as the operators and only as good as the assembler. Also, making a block dimensional near perfect, within .005 bore centers, 90° decks, aline bores within .0005 don't make a whole lot of power difference even if you could duplicate it every time. And you can't so don't even try. What I do know is that proper honing procedures, perfect valve jobs and proper assembly procedures and a real dyno make more power than any cnc machine ever has. So when you get the latter of what I just covered and not just a machine shop that puts main caps on junk blocks, come on down and check it out for yourself! We are overwhelmed with work and orders right now and have to hire another qualified person just to ease the load so I don't get as much time to answer questions for people who need it and don't want to measure who has the longest john! Not into it nor would I


Well we put alot of caps on blocks but they are not junk if they pass a sonic test and mag test i don't fell they are junk, We deal with alot of guys who's rules don't allow them to run an aftermarket block and we also machie alot of the Bowtie blocks that come with 2 bolt mains so are these blocks junk as well.

Now that you have insulted any one that has ever had splayed caps installed on a OEM block or a Bowtie I can see why you were thrown off the SPEEDTALK FORUM and your ruined the racing junk forum.

Now I understand why you have posted no pics or even advertise CNC machining on your website.

Now I see why you say that is no differance in HP with a CNC machined blocks ver one done with fixturing but tell that to a Cup team or some one else the uses CNC equipment to prepare their blocks with.

An email came to me this morning and after looking over it I kind of beleive you have never bought a CNC machine to this date as we know the reps from Rottler abd RMC as they know who has what.

Some people will say anything to get work :D:D

From AWSOME BILL F68 4 axis with every fixture and machine process you could think of. $147,000+. If it did not come with it, I could program it pretty quick. Worked with the machine for over 1 year and have seen no hp gains that you are talking about. Sure, we see the blueprint of the bore centers .001-.005 off, no big deal, side to side deck height .001-.002, nothing to get excited about, align bore .0005-.001 tight to high side, we still have to touch them up in the hone anyway, nothing new, lifter bores, cam tunnel etc all as close as they need to be. If Dart's stuff was that bad, I would not be using it to start with. Their stuff to date, I have found nothing I could not correct quickly and under the normal block prep. I do not use any thing else. We did get the chance to blueprint Donovons stuff and boy was I suprised. .001 from side to side and everything they done was dead on. Fred said it was nice to hear someone call and not b____!. We blue printed some other stuff and boy was I scared?

Lifter bores with older stock blocks are scary, but who uses that stuff any way. Stock blocks are out side to side but pretty close for what we have seen with what we do machine. I have never seen a cam bore out .016 let alone .005 out. Cam would not even slide in let alone turn. Send it back!

Looking at the other guy's stuff now, the 30 is out and most likely the 40 4 axis for the new years purchase. They are working on the radial clearence issue that is so easily done on the Rottler. Rottler uses the cam to crank to hold the block with air lock, very nice and easy for finding Verticle, Matt uses a solid bar going all the way threw the mains. Can't radial clearence anything and I am not pulling the block out to open for crank and rod clearence on the big engines. So he said he can work that out. Their machine is 5 times faster moving from point to point. The 4th axis on the Rottler is very very slow and sounds like a model T's transmission while rotating. The Rottler is very nice being you can do decking, probing, boring from probing or blueprint, radial clearence all in about ½ hour. I do not like the NO TOOL holder and trying to change it out. Even with the air lock cat 40, try to load the cutter head! Dirty machine, stuff flys everywhere. Matts stuff comes with a 12 or 24 tool holder, now I am looking forward to that.

What we have found once we got going is we can save a ton of time as long as the machine does its job. We have timed it. Big difference from 3 machines and 5 hours. I would consider another F68 if they fix the knee mill that moves around pretty bad! Put a Big M on the machine and then move it all the way to the left to do a resurface? WOW is all I can say. Would never consider another one unless they double the knee mill size and cut the weight of the 4th axis buy 200 lbs. Bed Mills are the only thing to use with putting that much weight to one side. Just does not work. That is why we are changing up. Found that out the hard way.

Hopefully we will make the deal at the PRI this year, hoping to is what my partner said. I would of had it this year but College with 3 children all @ one time is a ton. So I am working on that now. I only have 4 more years of that with the youngest.

What machine are you using?

[malihoochie]

The 4" bore SHP Ford blocks have been getting shipped according to order date, so that is good news! And here you were thinking it would not happen until Bill and Carl kissed and made up, huh? :D

The Ford SHP's are going to be VERY popular!

[Trmnatr]

Carl and i can agree we have our own problems, Right Carl ?

But when your right, your right.

Now i dont do machine work BUT i can tell you .0005" does make a difference on bearing clearances so IN MY OPINION .0005" in the housing bore that holds the bearing .0005" could be BIG

For engine builder, sorry, for engine assemblers we have to use a machine shop we trust for certain tasks or machine shops that are proven. I have been slow and REFUSED work in the past because the machine work was done by XXX

Many assemblers cant use one machine shop for everything, they may use 2 guys for line honing/boring, 2 guys for boring, 1 for head porting, 2 for head work and another for crankshaft work only because they are proven in the area, it is hard to find a good machine shop

Ya I do worry about .0004 on a main line and so do my customer as thats the differance between you and I just push stuff out the door with .0004 differance on the housing bores,

I guess you haven't seen the pics of the blower engines we build that hve won championships first and second 6 years in a row maybe 7 years as I have lost track.

I have had some calls about having rods on the high side as well and we have not experianced and spun bearings yet.

Putting mains up on the high side is going to cause the mains to spin come on get a life, It sounds like you have had problems spinning bearings and you have to blame it on something and not paying attention to detail and I see you tolerances are sloppy when and engine builder when an engine builder will send work out the door .0004 off.

GEEE yesterday we shipped an SHP block and rotator to Hendrick Motorsports in Charlotte NC so I must be doing something right.

We machine Dart blocks, and we are on a deep deal on the Bowtie stuff as well and we on a deal with Brodix as well and we always have some thing to do. And we do work on alot of OEM blocks as some of the tracks don't allow after market blocks and thats good money.

I know your not allowed on speedtalk any more :D as I post alot of pics over there on alot of blocks we machine.

Have a good day Bill Cannon

Bill I look over 3 businesses I own so I think I do pretty well

[Awesome Bill]

These are facts, not bull___t from someone that can actually read into the 10,000 of an inch. If you can't do machine work and you have a lame opinion about something you don't do, as a great man once said, "An Opinion is just like ___hole, every one has got one and most of them smell and they only have one cause, and that is to stir up ___T.

If the main bore of 2.640.6 is the low side of the main housing and it was 2.641.1 or even 2.641.6 which is .001 large side, the .2.641.1, 0005, which would be middle of the road, will only open or close clearance ½ of the difference which would be .00025 worth of clearance. I have run them .0005 under low specs on the rear cap and as well as over with no problems and never had issues @ all. What I have found is that the OIL and its ADDITIVES are 100 times more important than .0005 high or low side.

We have tested more oils in the last 2 years than I can think of and most with a API placker are way under minimum on the extreme pressure and anti scuff agents that a real race engine or flat tappet needs to survive. We started loosing lobes about 2 years ago on new engines on break ins and sticking lifters on killer roller engines. The whole reason engine builders are putting bronze lifter bore sleeves in for sticking lifters is there was not enough additives to keep them from not sticking with the loads that are now required on big rollers with 50-55-60-65mm cams are now capable of producing. Now they say you have to have bronze lifter bushings put into a brand new DART CNC'd machined block. NOT SO.

Running a good race oil like LAE, RENEGADE, VR1, PURE POWER and a ton of others is way more important. Anything with a 2000ppm additive package for all pressure agents is most likely going to lead to failure on brand new engines. It might make it buy with 1400ppm on an engine already well broke in? And the Rotella is now 1200ppm so the oil we used for years is going to the way side also. We have opted to use the high metal content Race Break in oils. The Gent from LAE Race oils and Kelly from Pure Power put me on to this about 3 years ago and helped us figure out what was going on. Advertisement makes us not look at what is really in the can or plastic bottle!

Like I said before, being dead nuts on means nothing in performance on main clearance and is not to be worried about as long as it is in the low to high side. Carl has his head up his butt and wants everyone to think it does and he wants to keep putting main caps on junk blocks, but its just not true. Now I am almost positive he can do this operation very well and am not taken anything away from him doing his job. If I put as many caps on junk blocks as he has I would be very very good at it and dedicate a machine to doing this. But DART already does even on their economy blocks as well as everyone else. We use some GM stuff but keep those blocks for power and customers who just can't afford it. We do use brand new hi-performance blocks, not 20-40 junk yard or what Carl might call them as seasoned blocks with bore centers all over the place.

It is always nice to see every hole perfect low or middle or even high side but is does not happen and most likely never does. There is always going to be .0001-.0003 or even more difference from hole to hole and front to back. That is why there is a high side and low side of .001 that is a standard.

We actually install all the mains, straight edge them then mic every jouranl and dial bore the bearing and record this measurement just in case there is a problem. This gives us the proper REALLY IMPORTANT CRITICAL clearance we have to have to make an engine live. If you do it any other way, like plastic gauge, you can get close but I never could real .0005 with lining up lines. Nothing wrong with plastic gauge and I sell it to everyone who does their own work and does not have a dial bore gauge. Even that is better than nothing or guessing. So it does make a difference being .0005 out but not critical if they all are within high or low specs.

What Carl does not understand that this offers little to none added hp with any engine that I have ever seen. If the crank has the proper crush and clearance with the bearing, everyone has their own low and high sides, the crank will spin like a top. REAL HP where .0005 would be a joke with serious engine builders and a dimension that really matters with NASCAR, would be taper in the bore with honing procedures. With proper honing procedures that most people never think about, ring seal is where a ton of power is never gotten or is captured.

I was just talking to Tom Owens, owner and a champion sled puller from North East NY, and his competitor just got some Hemi's in and he was actually spraying the crowd with blow by oil from his breathers. He actually put a hole in the intake manifold and redirected the blow by back in the brand new pair of engines with a 24AN line. His engine builder told him that was the pressure the blower made and they do that. Anyway, Tommy's Dart Block older style Chevy's can run without breathers or EVAC. No crankcase pressure and he is track champion for last year.

By the way Carl, if you got something like real cash; $1000 to see if you got any balls to play, put it up and you can see where I purchased a brand new loaded machine and see my contract with purchasing the F68A I will let you see it. But I doubt your ass can cover a bet that would be that big. So put up or shut up. I will give you dates on when I did purchase it.

Not only did we purchase the F68A @ the 2006 PRI in Orlando and can prove it, I am talking with Matt on the RMC 40 now and a crane system for moving the blocks around. We have not finalized anything but we are working on it. If you got $1000 to put up that weak bull___t you talk I will show you the real contract singed sealed and delivered on the machine and equipment.

Carl you must not do a lot of work because you sure have a bad case of ass about wanting to discredit me or really most likely maybe be like me or some reason about those loosers over at the other site you keep talking about. As I have said before, that was 3 years ago that girl started all that stuff over a bad check for machine work we done correctly and did not get paid and your the only one who brings it up.

We do every machine shop operation in housing except for crank grinding. I sold my machine 2 years ago because I did not do it enough to stay good at it. I only had it for rebuilding stock engines years ago. Now we use all new stuff and if I have to have one done, I send it to Mike @ Manlove in Dover Delaware,(been doing cranks 25 years) or The Crank Shop (Fred) who is 72 years old and starts work every morning @4.00a.m. I know Carl is still dreaming about something @ that time. But, Fred is the Best crankshaft repair, grinder or welder I have every done business with. THE CRANK SHOP New York. FRED! call him if you have a crank that needs repair or is obsolete and you can't get one. He can fix it most of the time.

[CNC BLOCKS]

These are facts, not bull___t from someone that can actually read into the 10,000 of an inch. If you can't do machine work and you have a lame opinion about something you don't do, as a great man once said, "An Opinion is just like ___hole, every one has got one and most of them smell and they only have one cause, and that is to stir up ___T.

If the main bore of 2.640.6 is the low side of the main housing and it was 2.641.1 or even 2.641.6 which is .001 large side, the .2.641.1, 0005, which would be middle of the road, will only open or close clearance ½ of the difference which would be .00025 worth of clearance. I have run them .0005 under low specs on the rear cap and as well as over with no problems and never had issues @ all. What I have found is that the OIL and its ADDITIVES are 100 times more important than .0005 high or low side.

We have tested more oils in the last 2 years than I can think of and most with a API placker are way under minimum on the extreme pressure and anti scuff agents that a real race engine or flat tappet needs to survive. We started loosing lobes about 2 years ago on new engines on break ins and sticking lifters on killer roller engines. The whole reason engine builders are putting bronze lifter bore sleeves in for sticking lifters is there was not enough additives to keep them from not sticking with the loads that are now required on big rollers with 50-55-60-65mm cams are now capable of producing. Now they say you have to have bronze lifter bushings put into a brand new DART CNC'd machined block. NOT SO.

Running a good race oil like LAE, RENEGADE, VR1, PURE POWER and a ton of others is way more important. Anything with a 2000ppm additive package for all pressure agents is most likely going to lead to failure on brand new engines. It might make it buy with 1400ppm on an engine already well broke in? And the Rotella is now 1200ppm so the oil we used for years is going to the way side also. We have opted to use the high metal content Race Break in oils. The Gent from LAE Race oils and Kelly from Pure Power put me on to this about 3 years ago and helped us figure out what was going on. Advertisement makes us not look at what is really in the can or plastic bottle!

Like I said before, being dead nuts on means nothing in performance on main clearance and is not to be worried about as long as it is in the low to high side. Carl has his head up his butt and wants everyone to think it does and he wants to keep putting main caps on junk blocks, but its just not true. Now I am almost positive he can do this operation very well and am not taken anything away from him doing his job. If I put as many caps on junk blocks as he has I would be very very good at it and dedicate a machine to doing this. But DART already does even on their economy blocks as well as everyone else. We use some GM stuff but keep those blocks for power and customers who just can't afford it. We do use brand new hi-performance blocks, not 20-40 junk yard or what Carl might call them as seasoned blocks with bore centers all over the place.

It is always nice to see every hole perfect low or middle or even high side but is does not happen and most likely never does. There is always going to be .0001-.0003 or even more difference from hole to hole and front to back. That is why there is a high side and low side of .001 that is a standard.

We actually install all the mains, straight edge them then mic every jouranl and dial bore the bearing and record this measurement just in case there is a problem. This gives us the proper REALLY IMPORTANT CRITICAL clearance we have to have to make an engine live. If you do it any other way, like plastic gauge, you can get close but I never could real .0005 with lining up lines. Nothing wrong with plastic gauge and I sell it to everyone who does their own work and does not have a dial bore gauge. Even that is better than nothing or guessing. So it does make a difference being .0005 out but not critical if they all are within high or low specs.

What Carl does not understand that this offers little to none added hp with any engine that I have ever seen. If the crank has the proper crush and clearance with the bearing, everyone has their own low and high sides, the crank will spin like a top. REAL HP where .0005 would be a joke with serious engine builders and a dimension that really matters with NASCAR, would be taper in the bore with honing procedures. With proper honing procedures that most people never think about, ring seal is where a ton of power is never gotten or is captured.

I was just talking to Tom Owens, owner and a champion sled puller from North East NY, and his competitor just got some Hemi's in and he was actually spraying the crowd with blow by oil from his breathers. He actually put a hole in the intake manifold and redirected the blow by back in the brand new pair of engines with a 24AN line. His engine builder told him that was the pressure the blower made and they do that. Anyway, Tommy's Dart Block older style Chevy's can run without breathers or EVAC. No crankcase pressure and he is track champion for last year.

By the way Carl, if you got something like real cash; $1000 to see if you got any balls to play, put it up and you can see where I purchased a brand new loaded machine and see my contract with purchasing the F68A I will let you see it. But I doubt your ass can cover a bet that would be that big. So put up or shut up. I will give you dates on when I did purchase it.

Not only did we purchase the F68A @ the 2006 PRI in Orlando and can prove it, I am talking with Matt on the RMC 40 now and a crane system for moving the blocks around. We have not finalized anything but we are working on it. If you got $1000 to put up that weak bull___t you talk I will show you the real contract singed sealed and delivered on the machine and equipment.

Carl you must not do a lot of work because you sure have a bad case of ass about wanting to discredit me or really most likely maybe be like me or some reason about those loosers over at the other site you keep talking about. As I have said before, that was 3 years ago that girl started all that stuff over a bad check for machine work we done correctly and did not get paid and your the only one who brings it up.

We do every machine shop operation in housing except for crank grinding. I sold my machine 2 years ago because I did not do it enough to stay good at it. I only had it for rebuilding stock engines years ago. Now we use all new stuff and if I have to have one done, I send it to Mike @ Manlove in Dover Delaware,(been doing cranks 25 years) or The Crank Shop (Fred) who is 72 years old and starts work every morning @4.00a.m. I know Carl is still dreaming about something @ that time. But, Fred is the Best crankshaft repair, grinder or welder I have every done business with. THE CRANK SHOP New York. FRED! call him if you have a crank that needs repair or is obsolete and you can't get one. He can fix it most of the time.

Every one seem to be happey wit our work and we do make sure the main lines are spot on we do ship alot of blocks internationaly now you see that on my new website that is being built.

The block and rotator we sent to Hendricks last month turned out very well and they were pleased with all the measurements and said every thing was spot on just like the spec sheet said

If your leaving .0005 from low to high on a main thats up to you but when we send a block to another engine builder thaty don't want to see that and 80% of them give us a demension and that where we put them no questions asked.

We don't buy junk your blocks but we have quite a few of them sent to us as we see alot of the LT1 blocks that are 2 bolts and we machine them to splayed caps and finish machine them and send them back so far no problems.

We have alot of the old 350 blocks sent to us for the BBC cam tunnels splayed billet caps and lifter bore work, decking and boring and most we don't have to finish hone and at 1800 dollars a block we make some pretty good money on those blocks. There are a lot of shops out there that are not set up to blue print bore the cam tunnels and regroove the cam journals in a 010 block.

And believe it or not Bill we also machine alot of cam tunnels in the SHP blocks as well plus machine the lifter bores to eaither .875 to .904 what ever they want and set them up for dry sump as well and the ones hat want bushed lifter bores we do them as well as they are specing the blocks out and are paying the bill and I don't arque with them. 80% of my work seems to be for other machine shops.

Been building engines for 37 years now and we do a lot with the circle track crowd and we help them with there combinations and they always seem to make better power. Which makes a good market for me.

See I am allowed to post on speedtalk and racing junk which seems to bring in alot of work and phone calls.

We seem to answer alot questions on Dart blocks in a week and guys are always asking quetions about what can and can't be done to the blocks.

All I asked is for a pic of a your equipment and wasn't asking for a bet as myself and other were just looking for a pic.

If some one question what I had I would post a pic and give them the salesmans name if they wanted it to verify things.

Bill right now we are about 2 months behind in the shops which is a good thing as there are a lot of shops not doing much and I hope buy September to be cought up on block work and engines that have to be shipped.

By the way you post and call peoples blocks junk I can see why they don't let you post on certain sites but there blocks we work on seem to bring in good money. If another machine wants bushings in his new Dart block we don't argue with them we just do the work and get paid for it. Blue printing cam tunnels seems to be a big part of our business which is not a big deal for us to do.

We get a lot of calls from other engine builders for info. on block machining, line honing, line boring, cylinder honing and block work. And we are WD with every body and we move a lot of parts as well.

And we have no use for a crank grinder at our shop and maybe we have had one crank ground in the last 5 years because a dry sump belt came off and if your send that many cranks out for repair you may want to find out what the problem is.

We buy a lot of cranks from http://kingscrankshaft.com/ and he has been to my engine shop many times and can't beleive the cranks we take out of our engines as they look like they just came out of the box. We have one engine with a Callies crank that was bought in 1989 and is still is prestien condition not a mark on it. So paying attention to detail makes all the diffrerance in the world.

Carl

[Awesome Bill]

4.000" bore blocks make more power than most standard blocks could ever try to handle. Most customers have stock blocks that cracked or fail and the shp 4" block is a life saver from try to patch up a stock block. More people run the 4" stuff 10-1 ratio over the 4.125" stuff. You should know that is you mess with any amounts of Ford Stuff. There are a million Mustang boys with broken main caps even after they were sold those junk main girdles that actually do nothing to strengthen the already weak mains.

[CNC BLOCKS]

We sonic test all our blocks and we don't see any failed cylinders and we use alot or splayed caps on our blocks and no main line issues but most of these engines are only around 550 horse.

Most rules don't allow for aftermarket blocks yet and guys were alwyas concerned over weight using a Bowtie or a Dart as they did not like the extra 45 pounds.

But the SHP block is a life saver and I am sure the tracks will allow them at some point in time.

[jerry clayton]

hopefully it will be soon!!!!!

[n2omaverick]

Not stealing the thread or looking to piss of people that clearly know way more about this crap than I do. But as I read the whole thread all I could think of was two guys fully clothed bragging about who's junk was bigger.
no offence
Mav

[want-a-be]

Not stealing the thread or looking to piss of people that clearly know way more about this crap than I do. But as I read the whole thread all I could think of was two guys fully clothed bragging about who's junk was bigger.
no offence
Mav

Nah,...this thread is history. Look at the dates of each post.

lol...but thanks for giving me a reason for breezing over it again. It helps reinforce some opinions...lol

Don

[Awesome Bill]

If they ever made a stock 8.2" SBF that would handle 600hp with a manual transmission without pushing the mains out, they were not making 600hp. I have install the splayed caps on the stock 302 blocks with great success and align bored them with little to know problems. The blocks are pretty stout after that. But even with that, you can sonic check all you want, over 750 hp, there just is nothing but in most cases .100" of block. Still o.k. for some applications.
But by the time I get this old block all done, it cost more than the SHP and won't be ½ as strong. No one is going to agree 100% of the time, and maybe 50% with engine builders for sure. I agree in some applications were you have to use ("stock") blocks, good luck. But 45lbs and all the power you want is a very easy trade. If you don't know how to account for the extra nose weight, you should not be running a race car!