New SHP Blocks

[MiaBlackStang]

Are the new SHP 302 blocks going to require any machining? If so, what.

[Dart Vader]

The SHP block is a finished block and will be ready for use after the end user gives it a finish hone (which is neccessary for any new block).

[MiaBlackStang]

So basically your saying after a finish hone I can slap in my rotating assembly, some head gaskets and a set of heads and its ready to go? How does this block differ from the machining required to prep a Dart Iron Eagle or Sportsman? What head gaskets would you recommend for the SHP block?

[Dart Vader]

You really just need to check main clearance and size accordingly, check lifter bore and clearance size, and finish hone bores for any of the blocks you listed to be ready for use.

Any head gasket that will work on a conventional style block will generally work with our SHP block.

[Brian@ADperformance.com]

You really just need to check main clearance and size accordingly, check lifter bore and clearance size, and finish hone bores for any of the blocks you listed to be ready for use.

Any head gasket that will work on a conventional style block will generally work with our SHP block.


I think it's a fine line to walk when telling customers a block is "finish machined."

Yes, the block has been CNC machined and finished, less cylinders, by DART prior to shipping. However, this does not account for final sizing, component variance or specific surface RA finishes, ect.

Any of DART's blocks require a machinist to finish them before being ready for assembly, they are not ready assemble legos.

[Trmnatr]

I think it's a fine line to walk when telling customers a block is "finish machined."

Yes, the block has been CNC machined and finished, less cylinders, by DART prior to shipping. However, this does not account for final sizing, component variance or specific surface RA finishes, ect.

Any of DART's blocks require a machinist to finish them before being ready for assembly, they are not ready assemble legos.

X2

Almost every block ends up line honed at the machine shop

[CNC BLOCKS]

X2

Almost every block ends up line honed at the machine shop

The ones we have been getting have been fine and we have been line honing them if the customer wants studs and even then we just dust them out to the high side and they have been fine so far.

[Awesome Bill]

Actually putting them on the high side puts all the bearing crush out to max limits. This is a no no for High Performance. I have found when putting it dead on high side, if you can do dead on with a hone, puts the bearing at a greater rate for spinning a main. The crush of the bearing to the block is what holds the bearing in place. So putting everything on the high side is really non sense, especially if the customer is paying for a brand new block. Also, when this is done on a brand new block, after seasoning is over, the bores tend to open up. So now you have a block that is oversized on main tolerance .0005 or so and that is considered out by a ½. So we never try to put it there just to do it. We like to see max middle of the road so there is always room for a dusting. Just what we have found to work very well. We never let it go out of the green low side!

We have had 10 big m big blocks run threw the shop in the last month and not one had to be touched on the mains. All have been in the green or middle of the road. 4 Little Ms and 2 SHP units that we also sold and were untouched.

[MiaBlackStang]

Any news on when Dart will be shipping out these new blocks to their authorized dealers?

[CNC BLOCKS]

The last time I talked to Richard I thought they might be out by now and they werre going to call when they had some to release

[CNC BLOCKS]

I have had some calls about having rods on the high side as well and we have not experianced and spun bearings yet.

Putting mains up on the high side is going to cause the mains to spin

[3V Performance]

Like Carl, we have many up on the high side of the aproved housing bore spec. If a brg manufacture gives a min and a max and a max does not crush brg enough then one would think the min would distort the brg leaving only one size to be perfect.

[Awesome Bill]

We don't have mains spinning, and when the parting line is out .001 I do not get excited. The X is where I like it to be right on the middle of the road. If the entire hole is out to high side specs, this puts less crush into the bearing and also transfers less heat out of the bearing threw metal transfer. We have found on blower engines that make 2500hp and up, putting the mains on the high side just push the bearing shell right out in less than 4 passes. Nothing helps stop this but what we have found is that a brand new block will run up to 10 passes before it deforms the main shell from nothing but power. It spreads the bearing out. So every 4 passes, the mains come out. It is only when the hole gets big is when we have after 4 passes the bearing is done. We pull the block to bring the main bore back down. Parting lines out .001 in my opinion on a new block is wrong. Bearings have that clearance built into them and don't need a parting line to be larger. When making little power, you can get away with a ton, but when making a lot of power, it better be tight even to .0005 to .00075 below low side specs.
We have a Sunnen Line hone that works very well. When we put caps on a block, we aline bore the three after install then touch them up with the hone. Nothing special here with that. For someone that is critical on a .0004 out of spec new block then be so liberal on high or low side clearance is just amazing to me.

[Awesome Bill]

.0001 to .0004 means very little. Because we can measure this now with our CNC equipment makes no more power than anything before. So what if the bore space is off .001.

I just don't like putting anything on the very high side brand new. Don't mean it won't work or it will cause any problems. It is just if its on the low or even .0001-.0002 low, this will cause no problems as long as the minimum bearing clearance is achieved for what application we are working with.

You can put every machined area of any block you do dead on and when someone else checks it, it will be off! Your machine is not dead on compared to all the others out there. It is close most likely. I have had the chance to watch a complete machined block right off a machine like you have and when I told him to put the block back in and reprobe the block as if it was another one, the very best it could do was .002 with bore centers and deck height. This was a brand new machine! So I wonder what a 20 year old unit is? So when you act like this matters, it don't. Close enough in this area is fine. Aline bores are a little more of an area I like to keep as close to dead on as possible. But I never get up set if some of the blocks don't come right out perfect between machines. This scares people into thinking .001 is not good enough in some areas. I don't know of any clearances that .0005 will cause detremental damage to.

It is nice to have DRO's in .0001 but side to side, bore centers, lifter bores, etc etc are just not that critical. Now if we are building pro stock engines or comp engines, every man to him or her selves and the power will prove. But I have seen some jacked up stuff fly!

NO ONE can be perfect and to claim that is ridiculous. I will be the first to say we have messed up and had problems. Either with new equipment, learning curves or employees who don't do their job.

But when it comes off the dyno and does not fail in any way, that is what we shoot for. We don't do any work unless we varify it with the dyno.

[CNC BLOCKS]

We have probing cycles built into our CNC machine that checks cylinder placement, deck heights, lifter bore placement ETC, we can check cam tunnel placement also.

.0004 means alot to the engine shop or engine assembler we are selling a block too. We sell alot to other engines shops all over plus we are on a deep deal with Bowtie blocks as well.

If we were selling blocks .0004 defferance in main line I would expect to get a call and get the block back to get it fixed.

[MiaBlackStang]

Hey so whats the word on this block? Has a new release date been set? are they available yet?

[CNC BLOCKS]

Hey so whats the word on this block? Has a new release date been set? are they available yet?

Dart was going to call when they had some done, but right now they are backed up on filling orders which is a good thing to have a company busy.

[CLAYTONRACING]

They are supposedly going out the door now. they are supposed to be shipping us the 4.125 bore versions on or about the 17th. So these should start showing up places any day now.

[CLAYTONRACING]

Just got the call from Dart. Our big bore blocks are out the door today.

[MiaBlackStang]

Just got the call from Dart. Our big bore blocks are out the door today.

What about the small bore blocks? Any idea when you will have them?

[CLAYTONRACING]

Those are already being shipped to dealers, I just had 4.125 bore blocks on order. I'm sure some of the other guys are probably about to receive their small bore stuff. Brian at AD performance might have some in the works, He usually has a lot of ford stuff.

[jerry clayton]

we were out showing the ford 4.125 shp block today and everybody was blown away by the quality appearance, splayed 4 bolt caps , etc but we were asked repeatedly about the 4 inch block. Why???? do people want to just switch 4 inch components they already have ????? Also lots of talk about the chevy shp including the new LT version--even had a guy at one place with a Buick Roadmaster!!!!!

[malihoochie]

The 4" bore SHP Ford blocks have been getting shipped according to order date, so that is good news! And here you were thinking it would not happen until Bill and Carl kissed and made up, huh? :D

The Ford SHP's are going to be VERY popular!

[Trmnatr]

Carl and i can agree we have our own problems, Right Carl ?

But when your right, your right.

Now i dont do machine work BUT i can tell you .0005" does make a difference on bearing clearances so IN MY OPINION .0005" in the housing bore that holds the bearing .0005" could be BIG

For engine builder, sorry, for engine assemblers we have to use a machine shop we trust for certain tasks or machine shops that are proven. I have been slow and REFUSED work in the past because the machine work was done by XXX

Many assemblers cant use one machine shop for everything, they may use 2 guys for line honing/boring, 2 guys for boring, 1 for head porting, 2 for head work and another for crankshaft work only because they are proven in the area, it is hard to find a good machine shop

[Awesome Bill]

If the main bore of 2.640.6 is the low side of the main housing and it was 2.641.1 or even 2.641.6 which is .001 large side, the .2.641.1, 0005, which would be middle of the road, will only open or close clearance ½ of the difference which would be .00025 worth of clearance. I have run them .0005 under low specs on the rear cap and as well as over with no problems and never had issues @ all. What I have found is that the OIL and its ADDITIVES are 100 times more important than .0005 high or low side.

We have tested more oils in the last 2 years than I can think of and most with a API placker are way under minimum on the extreme pressure and anti scuff agents that a real race engine or flat tappet needs to survive. We started loosing lobes about 2 years ago on new engines on break ins and sticking lifters on killer roller engines. The whole reason engine builders are putting bronze lifter bore sleeves in for sticking lifters is there was not enough additives to keep them from not sticking with the loads that are now required on big rollers with 50-55-60-65mm cams are now capable of producing. Now they say you have to have bronze lifter bushings put into a brand new DART CNC'd machined block. NOT SO.

Running a good race oil like LAE, RENEGADE, VR1, PURE POWER and a ton of others is way more important. Anything with a 2000ppm additive package for all pressure agents is most likely going to lead to failure on brand new engines. It might make it buy with 1400ppm on an engine already well broke in? And the Rotella is now 1200ppm so the oil we used for years is going to the way side also. We have opted to use the high metal content Race Break in oils. The Gent from LAE Race oils and Kelly from Pure Power put me on to this about 3 years ago and helped us figure out what was going on. Advertisement makes us not look at what is really in the can or plastic bottle!

It is always nice to see every hole perfect low or middle or even high side but is does not happen and most likely never does. There is always going to be .0001-.0003 or even more difference from hole to hole and front to back. That is why there is a high side and low side of .001 that is a standard.

We actually install all the mains, straight edge them then mic every jouranl and dial bore the bearing and record this measurement just in case there is a problem. This gives us the proper REALLY IMPORTANT CRITICAL clearance we have to have to make an engine live. If you do it any other way, like plastic gauge, you can get close but I never could real .0005 with lining up lines. Nothing wrong with plastic gauge and I sell it to everyone who does their own work and does not have a dial bore gauge. Even that is better than nothing or guessing. So it does make a difference being .0005 out but not critical if they all are within high or low specs.

If the crank has the proper crush and clearance with the bearing, everyone has their own low and high sides, the crank will spin like a top. REAL HP where .0005 a dimension that really matters with NASCAR, would be taper in the bore with honing procedures. With proper honing procedures that most people never think about, ring seal is where a ton of power is never gotten or is captured.

I was just talking to Tom Owens, owner and a champion sled puller from North East NY, and his competitor just got some Hemi's in and he was actually spraying the crowd with blow by oil from his breathers. He actually put a hole in the intake manifold and redirected the blow by back in the brand new pair of engines with a 24AN line. His engine builder told him that was the pressure the blower made and they do that. Anyway, Tommy's Dart Block older style Chevy's can run without breathers or EVAC. No crankcase pressure and he is track champion for last year.

[Awesome Bill]

4.000" bore blocks make more power than most standard blocks could ever try to handle. Most customers have stock blocks that cracked or fail and the shp 4" block is a life saver from try to patch up a stock block. More people run the 4" stuff 10-1 ratio over the 4.125" stuff. You should know that is you mess with any amounts of Ford Stuff. There are a million Mustang boys with broken main caps even after they were sold those junk main girdles that actually do nothing to strengthen the already weak mains.

[CNC BLOCKS]

We sonic test all our blocks and we don't see any failed cylinders and we use alot or splayed caps on our blocks and no main line issues but most of these engines are only around 550 horse.

Most rules don't allow for aftermarket blocks yet and guys were alwyas concerned over weight using a Bowtie or a Dart as they did not like the extra 45 pounds.

But the SHP block is a life saver and I am sure the tracks will allow them at some point in time.

[jerry clayton]

hopefully it will be soon!!!!!

[Awesome Bill]

If they ever made a stock 8.2" SBF that would handle 600hp with a manual transmission without pushing the mains out, they were not making 600hp. I have install the splayed caps on the stock 302 blocks with great success and align bored them with little to know problems. The blocks are pretty stout after that. But even with that, you can sonic check all you want, over 750 hp, there just is nothing but in most cases .100" of block. Still o.k. for some applications.

But by the time I get this old block all done, it cost more than the SHP and won't be ½ as strong. No one is going to agree 100% of the time, and maybe 50% with engine builders for sure. I agree in some applications were you have to use ("stock") blocks, good luck. But 45lbs and all the power you want is a very easy trade. If you don't know how to account for the extra nose weight, you should not be running a race car!