[DARTZZILLA]

AS A MATTER OF FACT I THINK IT MIGHT BE A GOOD IDEA JUST TO MAKE A DART SUPER ENGINE W/THE BEST OF EVERYTHING 1"SUPER RAISED SEMETRICAL or SPREADPORT RUNNERS,2,3,OR 4VALVE OPTION, 1"THICK DECKS, SEMI HEMI DUAL SPARK PLUG'S W/DUAL OVER HEAD CAMS, SS DART SHAFT ROCKER SYSTEM, A RACE SERIES BLOCK W/ 4 CROSS BOLT MAINS,[4 IN THE BOTTOM & 4 IN THE SIDE, W/DART BILLIT OILPANS, AND OR A RAISED CAM, , RAISED PORT DART INTAKES SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS ENGINE, DESIGN A UNIVERSAL FRONT CLIP CRADEL FOR THIS ENGINE SO IT CAN FIT A CHEVY OR FORD OR DODGE! MAKE THEM IN 2 SIZES 500ci small block and A 600ci-1000ci bb!
THIS IS DART & DART IS DOMINANT BECAUSE THEY ARE THE BEST
IF YOUN DONT SOMEBODYS GOING TOO
EVENTUALLY

[want-a-be]

schuckz has a lot to ask for, and he hits alot of very good points for the upper end guys. The head I'd like to see might even be able to fit both what he wants and what I am trying to target. Bad thing about upper end heads are, imo of course. there are guys who aren't wanting to hit over 7500RPMs but would still like to have all those features. Maybe something with the same cross sectional area (volume) as the 200cc heads but with taller runners. ( which of course adds to the runner volume, for those who might not know this that is) But make them beefy enough to reach out and capture those larger flow numbers.

Just rambling aimlessly,....sorry still recovering from a 4 day camping trip in bad weather. Almost like a hang over....

Don

[Dart Vader]

Originally Posted by Sam Vincent

I tried post the other day but couldnt. I sent in a pretty detailed e-mail about this subject. my e-mail is;

thanks, Sam Vincent

I think something like Little Chief/SBX head for a ford. Needs to be real rigid/stiff, not near as heavy as the new Edelbrock SC 1 heads (way heavy), may as tall or a tad less. A nice large sturdy rocker stand pad, maybe do an extra rocker stand bolt toward intake face a little between rockers (for that cylinder) in a triangulate pattern,. I believe the 10 headbolt works fine most the time with the MLS style gaskets and real good fastener. A superior coolant flow. Maybe offer two valve angles, one for N/A or forced induction (9-12*), and then a more nitrous friendly version(11-14*).
liek I said check out my e-mail

Did get your e-mail, it's been added to the file for review.
Thanks to everyone for the input so far.

[min301]

I'll lend my thoughts...


Hello, min301-moderator at Hot Rod magazines forum, and
member at bangshift.com, auto tech, and engine builder.

Let me start out with, the SBF heads on the market now are the best that's ever been available to the public, so unless something is really goos about em, they'll
get muddled in the fray.
A few things pop to mind, such as an exhaust port that can flow comparably
to the better heads, which will likely require raising the port(which causes header fitment headaches), maybe rolling the valve angle between 10 and 15 degrees.

Also, TFS came up w/ the twisted wedge, which is a good head, but is limited
in flow, especially on the exhaust. The classic Cleveland heads flow great at
the outer stretches of rpm on the intake, but had a weak exhaust port.

Yates heads are awesome, but very expensive-point is-the budget end is pretty well covered, I would concentrate on the mid-upper level stuff here.

[want-a-be]

I'd like to see the upper level stuff blended into the lower level heads. I guess thats the point I have been trying to make. Surley the header deal can be gotten around with the higher exhaust ports. Just engineer around the problem. For the most part you're limited by your imagination when you're engineering a change.

Don

[Falcon67]

A SBF head is quite a project. You start moving stuff around and pretty soon intakes and headers don't fit so well. There is also a water routing issue between the typical W type application and a C application. To broaden the potential market, you'd want to make it convertible for those applications. A couple of holes and some plugs does that.

I run a lot of 351C stuff and have run a bit of 302 in the past. A good tune up on a 351C head reduces a 4V port down to the 220cc range where it still has decent low end. The canted valves ease cylinder filling but they still only sit - typically - on a 4" bore. That all works better on a 4.125 or so. I imagine it would also make the head wider - like a 351C. There are plenty of intakes that can handle an intake port in the 190~230 cc range so that should not be a problem. The intake could stand to be raised a bit to help the short turn. The 2V 351C and not as much the 4V has a very sharp turn to the valve because the port lays pretty flat. Putting something like a Parker port tongue in a 4V port makes a big improvement on that.

Big valves are good. You get much over 1.9 intake in any of the "inline" head applications and you will likely have piston interference depending on valve lift.

We're pretty stuck with the 4 bolts/cylinder. So a thick deck is required to try and keep the head flat with a big blower or big spray.

The exhaust ports are a compromise, a 2V 351C exhaust flows better than a 4V port even when ported. The stock heads are designed with the idea that most of the older applications have those big shock towers in the way, so with the port pointed out, the header pipes have to make a pretty serious turn right off the port. Raising and widening makes it more of a problem in a shock tower car. The square shape of a 351C head points the port more down than out which helps. But the pipe still has to make a decent turn. In the later model applications, there is usually more room. SBF headers are already a PITA and making a wider port doesn't help that - but it's what is needed. It'd be interesting to see what a taller standard width port with a special header would do to exhaust flow.

Trick Flow introduced a nice 351C head at SEMA 2008 that is worth a look for comparison.

- couple of port volumes, 180~190 and 220~230, raised intake floor, lean the valve back toward the short side
- canted valves, maybe requiring partnering with a piston producer. 1.9 lower end, 2.10 standard, 2.2+ maybe top end / 1.6 or 1.7 exhaust
- thick deck
- pedestals for either bolt down (late model/GT40 type) or regular studs + guide plates
- a bit wider/ taller exhaust with less of a "hump" in the exit - maybe limited by external interference - sort of a modified "351C" exit.
- provision for water at the front face of the head, for possible applications requiring water to be pulled out the front.
- Small engine chamber size 58 or 60cc with deck to reduce to 55ish, larger 351~383 engine chamber 64~68 cc middle, 74~76 big bore/stroker.

Sounds like a fun project, good luck with it.

[Sam Vincent]

Originally Posted by Dart Vader

Did get your e-mail, it's been added to the file for review.
Thanks to everyone for the input so far.

Thanks, one thing that would probably makeit better too , but require custom camshaft and possible manifold, is reverse the int. & exh. valve layout. that would be a first in the SBF race head and straighten up the port alignment a bunch.

[Smokey427]

Hi, This is Robbie Capps. To me you guys should build a cylinder head that fits the market and evryones wallet. I am an engine builder and machinist and have built many fords and chevys. I have used the D3 heads and blue thinder cylinder heads, and many others that you guys have mentioned. They are all great but the interchangebility and cost two build and astronomical. You have problems like headers having to be custom made and intake manifolds were you have slim choices. If it were me I would target The little guy. What I meen by that is this. The big inch stroker is what evryone is tryin to build these days and by far the ford versions are very potent. You guys should consider the guy that wants to build one and put it in his 70 boss or 79-93 fox body. Or even a fairmont. We need something with availible headers that fit and manifolds we can buy off the shelf. And have flow numbers that can feed the ever demands of the big inches. You guys may know this but Air Flow Research just produced an chevy small block cylinder head that is exactly what I have been speaking about. It uses stock angles and intake fittment. Even headers are a easy thing to get. Cause the heads retain the stock measurments. But heres the thing, The head they have are 350cfm + and have room for porting. That means that you can build big inches and spray nitrous and supercharge or turbo this thing to death. And still make big power and not have to spend 2000.00 on headers or 1500 on custom intake manifolds. And most of all no major car modifications just to fit in in there. And you dont have to drop 4500.00 just on d3 castings and then spend an extra 2500 on some shaft rockers. Just make them with conventional rocker arm stud pads that are super strong and make it were you can put an 2.125 to 2.05 intake valve and a1.60 to 1.625 exhaust valve. Give us two or three choices. Cause if you target the street machine and the hardcore racer and make sure he dosnet have to spend 60,000.00 on an engine he will be happy. Make it with a super efficient chamber and you guys already know that. Make it with super thick decks so for big inch to small inch motors can be built. or just sell it with 76 cc or 60cc. and both ways can be milled to spec. Definately do an twisted wedge stile chamber to get the intake valve in the center of the cylinder and be sure to lay the chambers out with plenty of unshrouded area. Need no restrictions. Keep the stock bolt pattern and quantity. Super efficient coolant compasity. Not sure on valve angles cause im not sure on my limitations with retaining stock demensions. You guys should know that already. Probably 20 degrees is far as you can go with those limitations. Same goes with raising the floors of intake and exaust. Just not sure. But by all meens do it if you can. See this way pistons, headers, intakes and shaft rockers and stud rockers are off the shelf parts and will fit in any application or should I say most. It can be done and by all Meens I would love to see you guys do it. Plus if you get Richard Maskin and Billy Glidden and his Dad Bob Gliddens advice as prominant engine builders you will be on top of the game and makin sales. And in todays economy and tryin to survive, makin sales is what keeps the doors open. Then turn around and build the ultimate sbf racing head. Then you can spare no exspense with crazy valve angle and port locations. Well thanks for hearing me out and hope I dont get beat up to bad for my imput.